Life Begins At Conception?

[Good Friday]

Although I've put this in the Debate Table, I don't intend it for debate . . . it's really more of a question.

Does the church or does it not definitively teach that life begins at conception? I've always thought that it did, but now I'm not so sure. It appears that life beginning at conception has only been taught since 1869, so I would like someone to explain to me why . . .

1. In the fifth century, St. Augustine taught that the penance for abortion was that of sexual sin and not murder (St. Augustine, [i]De nuptiis et concupiscentia[/i])?

2. The Irish Canons placed the penalty of abortion at 3 1/2 years and the penalty for illicit sex at seven years (John T. McNeill and Helena M. Gamer, [i]Medieval Handbooks of Penance[/i], pgs. 119-120)?

3. In 1140 Gratian's code of canon law taught that "abortion was homicide only when the fetus was formed" -- which is not at conception (John T. Noonan, ed., [i]The Morality of Abortion: Legal and Historical Perspectives[/i], pg. 20)?

4. The Council of Vienne confirmed St. Thomas Aquinas' teaching that hominization (the point at which an unborn becomes a human person) is delayed and is not at conception (Joseph F. Dunceel, S.J., "Immediate Animation and Delayed Hominization," [i]Theological Studies[/i], vols. 1 & 2, pgs. 86-88)?

5. Pope Sixtus V, in his bull [i]Effraenatam[/i], was the first to apply the penalty for homicide, excommunication, to abortion in 1588 ([i]Codicis iuris fontes[/i], ed. P. Gasparri, vol. 1, pg. 308)?

6. Pope Gregory XIV overturned that penalty in [i]Sedes Apostolica[/i], which advised church officials, "where no homicide or no animated fetus is involved, not to punish more strictly than the sacred canons or civil legislation does" and why this pronouncement lasted until 1869 (Ibid., pgs. 330-331)?

7. The first implicit endorsement of immediate hominization came from Pope Pius IX in 1869 in [i]Apostolicae Sedis[/i] when he reinstated the excommunication penalty?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

In 2004, we know a lot more science than these people did then.

I believe Aloysius has a large number of pro-life quotes from Church Fathers. Perhaps he'll post them.

[Crusader_4]

Aquinas would have stated earlier had they had the technology that we have today.

[i feel like im taking crzy pills]

Personally, I do think that life begins at conception, but hey, that's just me...

[StColette]

The Didache ca 60-70AD

"Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion." 2:2

"The Way of Death is filled with people who are
... murderers of children and abortionists of
God's creatures." 5:1-2

The Epistle or Barnabas ca 125 A.D.

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor more than thy own
life. Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion."
19:5
***
The Apocalypse of Peter ca 135 A.D.

"I saw a gorge in which the discharge and
excrement of the tortured ran down and became
like a lake. There sat women, and the discharge
came up to their throats; and opposite them sat
many children, who were born prematurely,
weeping. And from them went forth rays of fire
and smote the women on the eyes. These were
those who produced children outside of marriage
and who procured abortions." -26

"Those who slew the unborn children will be
tortured forever, for God wills it to so." -2:264
***
Clement of Alexandria ca 150-180 A.D.

"Our whole life can go on in observation of the
laws of nature, if we gain dominion over our
desires from the beginning and if we do not kill,
by various means of a perverse art, the human
offspring, born according to the designs of divine
providence; for these women who, if order to
hide their immorality, use abortive drugs which
expel the child completely dead, abort at the same
time their own human feelings." -Paedagogus 2
***
St. Athenagoras ca 177 A.D.

"We say that women who induce abortions are
murderers, and will have to give account of it to
God. For the same person, would not regard the
child in the womb as a living being and therefore
an object of God's care and then kill it.... But we
are altogether consistent in our conduct. We obey
reason and do not override it." -Legatio 35
***

Flavius Josephus, "Against Apion" 2:202: "The law [Jewish law] orders us
to bring up all our children,and forbids women to cause abortion of that
which is begotten; and if any woman seems to have done so,she will be a
murderer of her own child,by destroying a living creature." (Probably late
first century AD).

Sibylline Oracles 2.281-82: " ...as many as aborted what they carried in
the womb, as many as cast forth their offspring unlawfully [will be
punished after the resurrection]."

Tertullian, Apologeticum 9:8: For us, since murder has been forbidden, it
is also not permitted to dissolve what is conceived in the womb while the
blood is being formed into a human being. It is an anticipation of murder
to keep one from being born; nor does it make a difference whether one
takes the life of one already born, or disturbs one in the process of being
born: even the one who is going to be a human being is one." Text from
Sources Chrétiennes No.108,p.184.(Written about 197 A.D.)
Nlititicilis Felix ca 180-225 A.D.

"There are women who swallow drugs to stifle in
their own womb the beginnings of a man to be -
committing infanticide before they even give
birth to the infant." -Octavius
***
St. Hippolytus ca 170-236 A.D.


St.Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 52, to Cornelius: "He [the schismatic
Novatian] struck the womb of his wife with his heel and hurried an
abortion, thereby causing parricide." (Written about 251 AD)

"Reputed believes began to resort to drugs for
producing Sterility and to gird themselves round,
so as to expel what was conceived on account of
their not wanting to have a child either by a slave
or by any paltry fellow, for the sake of their
family and excessive wealth. Behold, into how
great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by
inculcating adultery and murder at the same
time." -Refutation of all Heresies 9:7
***
Council of Eivira ca 305 A.D.

"If a woman becomes pregnant by committing
adultery, While her husband is absent, and after
the act she destroys the child, it is proper to keep
her from communion until death, because she has
doubled her crime." -Canon 63


St.Basil the Great, Epistle 138: "He who destroys the fetus deliberately
is guilty of murder." PG 36:672. (Written about 375
AD)

St.Jerome, Epistle 22.13: [speaking of virgins] "Others drink for
sterility and commit murder on the human not yet sown. Some when they sense
that they have conceived by sin, consider the poisons for abortion, and
frequently die themselves along with it, and go to hell guilty of three
crimes: murdering themselves, committing adultery against Christ, and murder
against their unborn child." PL 22.401. (Written about 380 AD).

there are a few Pro-life quotes from Church Fathers

here's the biggie though right from the Bible

Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.'" (Jer. 1:4-5)

Now this is referring to Jeremiah but it also gives us knowledge that God knows each and everyone of us even before He places us in our mother's womb.

Edited September 3, 2004 by StColette

[MC Just]

oh sheesh here we go. Dont tell me, these are quotes the dissenters use to defend their anti-vatican position??


The Apocalypse of Peter (ca. 135)


"I saw a gorge in which the discharge and excrement of the tortured ran down and became like a lake. There sat women, and the discharge came up to their throats; and opposite them sat many children, who were born prematurely, weeping. And from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women on the eyes. These were those who produced children outside of marriage and who procured abortions."

2:26


"Those who slew the unborn children will be tortured forever, for God wills it to so."

2:64


To Anfilochius, Bishop of Iconia:

She who has intentionally destroyed [the fetus] is subject to the penalty corresponding to a homicide. For us, there is no scrutinizing between the formed and unformed [fetus]; here truly justice is made not only for the unborn but also with reference to the person who is attentive only to himself/herself since so many women generally die for this very reason.

-First Letter 2



Canon II.

Let her that procures abortion undergo ten years' penance, whether the embryo were perfectly formed, or not.

- The First Canonical Epistle of Our Holy Father Basil, Archbishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia to Amphilochius, Bishop of Iconium.



…those who give the abortifacients and those who take the poisons are guilty of homicide.

-First Letter 8

Edited September 3, 2004 by MC Just

[StColette]

The Church Fathers and Ancient Councils on Abortion

The Canons of the Council of Ancyra (which canons were accepted and received by the ecumenical synods)
Canon XXI.
Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.

The Constitution of the Holy Apostles
Book VII.
Concerning the Christian life, and the Eucharist and Initiation into Christ
Sec. I
III. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten; for "everything that is shaped, and has received a soul from God, if it be slain, shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed."

[MorphRC]

Just gonna deal with this, with common knowledge of sexual procreation.

[b]Life Begins At Conception?[/b]

Of course, from that point onward, it is a constant process of development, saying that life doesnt begin at conception is, to be frank, stupid. Once conception happens, it starts a process of the later full embodied human person as an infant.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

How does life NOT begin at conception? How do living things make an inanimate thing that becomes a living thing? I would say it's unnatural.

And just a note, science doesn't even have a universal definition for life and what is an isn't alive.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Sep 3 2004, 01:22 PM'] 1. In the fifth century, St. Augustine taught that the penance for abortion was that of sexual sin and not murder (St. Augustine, De nuptiis et concupiscentia)?
[/quote]

No he didn't. Wouldn't it make more sense to look these things up before posting these things that you find on the internet.

Here is the quote:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15071.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15071.htm[/url]
ON MARRIAGE AND CONCUPISCENCE
CHAP. 17
"The open cruelty reproves the concealed sin. Sometimes, indeed, this lustful cruelty, or; if you please, cruel lust, resorts to such extravagant methods as to use poisonous drugs to secure barrenness; or else, if unsuccessful in this, to destroy the conceived seed by some means previous to birth, preferring that its offspring should rather perish than receive vitality; or if it was advancing to life within the womb, should be slain before it was born."

If it was not murder, why where the terms "slain" and "perish" used?


Luke 1:41-43
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?

Exodus 21:22
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [literally in Hebrew, "so that her child comes out"] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot"

Causing a death of an unborn child ment that the person was put to death.

Psalms 51:5
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

Sinful from conception = ensoulment at conception.

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother's womb,



I ask that others research the other "points". Since the first point was a total lie, I expect the others to be similar. Use google, Catholic-pages.com, EWTN.com, and Catholic.com, [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers[/url] and you should be able to find everything.... if it exists.

I'm not saying GF lied, I'm saying that GF should have checked for it before posting it.


Maybe, since you do not believe the Catholic Church is right in anything now, are you trying to cast doubt in the minds of faithful Catholics?




God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited September 3, 2004 by ironmonk

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='thedude' date='Sep 4 2004, 12:38 AM'] And just a note, science doesn't even have a universal definition for life and what is an isn't alive. [/quote]
Well scientists change what they think is true from one week to the next, but the current accepted conjecture is:

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Wouldn't that definition include an embyro anyway?

[Br. Augustino]

I studied this last year in a class I had... You wanna know what the Church teaches? well here it is the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH in their document entitled
INSTRUCTION ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE IN ITS ORIGIN
AND ON THE DIGNITY OF PROCREATION said:
24)"From the time that the ovum is fertilized, a new life is begun which is neither that of the father nor of the mother; it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already. To this perpetual evidence ... modern genetic science brings valuable confirmation.

and VERY IMPORTANTLY in 25) The Magisterium has [u]not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature[/u], but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable

I think you must distinguish between the philosophical nature of this discussion and the biological. The Church has not offically come out [i]de juris[/i] with a philosophical answer (although many philosophers would say it [i]de facto[/i] might as well have) But it most asuredly has made a pronouncement concerning the biological question....

[i]Roma locuta est, causa finita est[/i]
Rome has spoken the matter is finished- St Augustine

[Aloysius]

The science of the midieval period said that in the womb we begin as a vegetable, turn into an animal, and eventually become a human and when we're a human life begins.

if a fertilized egg was really a vegetable, i wouldnt think human life began there either

anyway, ironmonk, he posted it here to get answers. the question 'why don't you look into it..' you put there annoys the heck out of me.. that's what he's doing here. if you can't look to PhatMass for answers where can you look?

[Aloysius]

also, i don't think he should get phishy just for asking questions (assuming that's why he's phishy now)

but that's just IMHO