Ayed, Look Here!

[Aloysius]

I know i posted this before on the "can he answer my questions" thread, but i just wanted to post it anew cause i want Ayed to see this.

I wanna explain "eternally begotten" to Ayed!

i'm gonna try to do this in the form of a diagram. Ayed asked who was eternal, the Father or the Son. The answer is both

the line is a time line, notice it goes infinitely forward and backwards.

<-------------------Father--------------->

<-------------------Son------------------>

Now, the Son is "eternally beggotten" of the Father. What exactly does this mean? This means that at every single point in time, infinitely forwards and backwards, the Son is being beggotten of the Father. I will pick a couple random points to show what i mean.

The I's are sposedta be lines. At each line, the Son is being begotton.

<-------------------Father--------------->

I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

<-----SON BEING BEGOTTON---------->

I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

<-------------------Son------------------>

beginning to see three sections in this diagram?

every line from the Father to the Son is the Father begetting the Son. A line of begetting will thus exist between these two lines at every single point. Why does this occur? Well, God is love, i think we both agree on that, right? Well, then God must have something to love. It is in His nature. God existed always, infinitely backwards in time as well as forwards. Humans and Angels are created beings. They did not always exist. What did He love before humans and angels? His only begotten son. The Son is eternal. THe Son is thus God. He must love also. Thus He loves the Father for all eternity. And so, the reason for the Father beggetting the Son is the infinite love between the Father and the Son. God is Love, i'll say it again. Thus, Love is God. THe infinite Love between the Father and the Son is thus God.

now we see the three persons of the diagram. Every line is where the Holy Spirit exists.

<-------------------Father--------------->

I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

<--b---b----b-------Holy Spirit-----b--b-->

I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

<-------------------Son------------------>

i threw in the random b's which mean the son being to show that through the Holy Spirit the beggeting of the Son is accomplished. The beggetting of the Son is a result of the Holy Spirit, which is the Love of the Father and Son, which is a result of the beggetting of the Son. These b's should rightfully be at ever single point of the line, as the lines down should rightfully be at ever single point in the line, basically makeing an infinite rectangle.

All three of those lines is eternal. But more than that, all three of those lines fill up EVERYTHING in space and time. How could that be? If one thing exists in EVERYTHING, there is no more room for something else to exist in EVERYTHING. THe only way it works, is because all three of those lines are ONE. thus they form a super gigantic line which is the basis of all existence.

<-----FatherSonandHolySpirit----->

While all this seems very complicated and well thought out (i should say well prayed-out, as i formulated this through long meditation and prayer about the trinity, the other product that came out of that was the chaplet i invented devoted entirely 2 the Blessed Trinity), it does not even begin to scratch the surface of the infinite mystery of God-- The Holy Trinity

alright here i shall sum up everything i said in case u missed something.

God is Love. God must Love for it is in His nature to love. Man and angel did not always exist. God always existed, forever forward in time, and forever backward in time. Thus, as His nature is to Love, His love always begets a Son to Love. The Son is also God. They both exist in EVERYTHING in time and space and are thus ONE. The Son is God, so He must Love also, Love is in the very nature of God. Thus the Son loves the Father because of the Father's love for the son. The Son is begotten because of the Father's Love for the Son. The Love between the father and the Son is infinite. God is Love, Love is God, the Third Person. All three are completely infinite and exist everywhere in space and time, and thus are ONE.

I hope this helps ur understanding of the Trinity.

Questions? Comments? post em!!!

[ayed]

Thank you for your explanation,

I do not like to answer in such rapid one .

I like answer any question in a good stuff.

So, you notice me often late in responding.

So, I will soon back ,

thnak you again,

ayed

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[ayed]

In the name Of Allah , the Most Compassionate, the Most Gracious

Sorry for being too late due to my parents’ conitons.

Thanks for all of you and I appeciate your responses.

Aloysius .. special thank for you and your diagram and I urge you to read th whole stuff :

Here are some comments from our dear members in another and the sam topic sharing our topic:

Dave :”Jesus is both fully God and fully man. Thus, He has a human will and knowledge as well as a divine will and knowledge. In light of this, when Jesus said that not even the Son knows the day or the hour, He's referring to his human knowledge. His divine knowledge already knows the day and the hour, though. So how can a divine knowledge and will coexist with a human knowledge and will? It's a mystery.

Ayed:based on what you believe in :

-Since Jesus is Allah’s Word thrown over the Virgin Maryam(peace be upon her)

--Since The Divine Word , full of divine knowledge and power, became flesh and blood.Accordingly, Jesus’ divine knowledge is in him.

Could you support your statments with some verses claiming that Jesus’ divine is left behind him?

Dave:”Yes, Jesus is an all-powerful God…His one desire was to do His Father's will”

Ayed: Well!Since Jesus’ desire overpowered by the Father, then the Father is the single All-power God and is stronger than Jesus.Thus, Jesus is not equal to the Father.Consequently, Jesus is a worshipping prophet.

Dave:” In the 3rd passage you refer to, Jesus is referring to the Father. That's where He's returning -- to His Father.

Ayed: , Dave .. please Jesus said:” my God and your God."(John 20:17)

What does Jesus exactly mean by “…my God”

----------------------------------------------------------

Skuba Steve: “No he does not”

Again , the same question .what did Jesus mean by:”my God”?

---------------------------------------------------------

Paladin D.

Special thank for you and your dear comment.This topic is open for everyone .

---------------------------------------------------------

Jake Huether :

Thank you so much and I ask you :

What does Jesus mean when he said:”my God”?

As for your other topic being discussd, I , by Allah’s will , will comment on them soon

[Aloysius]

thank you for replying

i hope this helps you to understand what we believe about the Trinity, and why we believe it.

i remember reading that thread before too. Here i was responding to when you asked which one was eternal, Jesus or the Father.

anyway, this is the big contention point u seem to focus on

John 20:17

Jesus said to her, "Stop holding on to me, 10 for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

here He says He is going to the Father. When He says "my God" we must remember, not only is Jesus fully God, but fully human also. God presides over all humanity. Thus, Jesus as human is ruled by God the Father, who He is going back to. So He's just emphasizing His humanity, His Father's divinity, and how we have all been adopted into this divine family.

there is a verse that comes to mind. i apologize for not citing, hopefully someone will help me out with the numbers.

Though Christ Jesus was in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God something to be grasped, rather, He humbled Himself to the form of a slave...

anyway, it goes something like that. This is Jesus' perfect humility. He does identify Himself as the immortal God, however, when he says "Before Abraham was, I AM" remember, I AM is what God called Himself when revealing Himself to Moses.

calling the Father His God is His infinite humility, it is His humanity, for all humanity is ruled by God thus Jesus the human is ruled by God. Jesus the Divine, however, who is the same person, is the eternal I AM

does that help? :)

[Jake Huether]

Aloysius,

That was excellent (not to pat you on the back ). Ayed, I couldn't have said it any better. Please listen to Aloysius.

God be with us!

[Joolye]

Here is a good analogy of the Trinity (three in one) though I don't know if anyone has said it already.

We have water, ice, and steam. They are three, yet they are also one. So it is with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. They are all the one God.

[Aloysius]

yes that's a good one, but i tend to avoid using it

however, i do like the water thing, especially cause we're sposed ta baptize in the name of the Trinity with water. I prefer how water is 3 atoms in one molecule. The Hydrogen would be the Holy Spirit, cause it is the love that binds the two together as one. Then, you gotta say instead of the smallness of each one, imagine each molecule is infinitely big.

yours is good 2! i just kinda get wary cause i don't think of it as 3 phases of God. Like, there's the God in the steam form, then the God in the liquid form, then the God in the solid form. Im not sure it covers it as well as say, the H20 thing.

Anyway, water is definitely a good source to look to when meditating about the Trinity. I wonder if Jesus thought of that when He made sure that baptism was in the name of the Trinity.

We can learn about our creator from what He created. Think about this, we live in a tri-une universe. There are three dimensions, three phases of matter, three sections of time (past, present, future), three atoms in one molecule for our main source of life--water, the only known planet to have life is on the third planet from the sun............. can anyone think of any more?

[ayed]

In the name Of Allah , the Most Compassionate, the Most Gracious

I actually thank you for drawing a simple diagram .

However, you say The Father begets which means that:

He gives birth to a son.

He has to marry to a woman

the son comes out of the Father

the son is a part of his Father,

the part is a disassociated identity

there are two identity

there are two Gods

love occurs between them.

they are as human beings,

You really anthropomorphize them.

>Does the Father claim you to worship Iesa(Jesus)? Just give me only one verse !

>>Does Iesa command you to worship him?

>>>There is no obvious evidence either in the Old Testament or New Testament denotes worshipping Iesa .

>>>>Again, let us go over the historical stages through which your dogma went and faced:

From the beginning of creation, there is only one single Creator(Allah) --the Father in your doctrine .

In 325, Naecan Council agreed on that Iesa(Jesus) be the second God.

In 381, The First Council of Constantinople agreed on that the Holy Spirit be the third God.

This is the whole story .That is it.

Allah is above all what we say.

Thank you all.

Ayed

Ayed4all@hotmail.com

[Aloysius]

:( i had hoped i would have given u a better understanding which would prevent u from thinking we worshipped 3 Gods.

God existed before mankind. By His very nature, God is Love. Who was He to love before anything came to be? He was to Love His only begotten son.

the son is not begotten by the father marrying a woman. He is begotten by the very nature of God. The very nature of God requires Love. Therefore, at every single point ever, not just at one point, but perpetually at the beggining and at the end and everywhere in between and beyond the beginning and beyond the end, Iesa is being born. Born from the Love of God. The Love of God, which is the Holy Spirit. This is how it has been from the begining.

do i need a verse to show worship of Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity?

V. Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.

Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.

Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.

Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.

Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.

Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God.

Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.

John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.

John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

for more about Jesus Christ's divinity in the Old and New testaments, Click Here

[ayed]

In the Name Allah , the Most compassionate, the Most gracious

Hi , all my dear members and readers.

Dear , Mr.Aloysius , thank you for collecting some verses which took from you value times to post them here for me , our dear members and readers.

According to your quotations excerpted from your holy books:

1-Jesus says “my God and your God."(John 20:17)

>>>How can a God has and worship another God?

2- John 20:17 “But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

>>>You can apparently notice what I have strictly confirmed on another topics that some of Jesus’ speech was sort of figurtaive language .Read this :

1-Jesus”… But go to my brothers …” :

Figuratively debating, I and you all believe in that Jesus had no brothers at all but he , through this verese, figuratively uttered “brothers” as a sort of human brotherhood and closeness of his people.

As you usually back up your statements with some figurative verses , I will back up my statements with some counter-questions:

Jesus , God, have brothers? :)How can you disprove it ?

2- “I am going to my Father” here , again, Jesus figuratively addressed his people around him; because if you take everything as face value , then how can you refute when he said:“and your Father”?

when Jesus said”father” , he meant “God”

Fact: according to (John 20:17)you say Jesus is a God , then you are Gods along with him!.If you say”No” we are not gods , then Jesus is not a god!

3-“Though Christ Jesus was in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God something to be grasped, rather, He humbled Himself to the form of a slave”

>>>You really have two Gods.

4- “He does identify Himself as the immortal God”

>>>Kindly, Mr.Alyosius , underline the phrase “immortal God” and answer my question

:Why did Jesus die?

5-“it is His humanity, for all humanity is ruled by God thus Jesus the human is ruled by God. Jesus the Divine, however, who is the same person”

>>>How can Jesus rule himself?

Thank you very much .

Ayed ,

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[Jake Huether]

In the name Of Allah , the Most Compassionate, the Most Gracious

I actually thank you for drawing a simple diagram .

However, you say The Father begets which means that:

He gives birth to a son.

He has to marry to a woman

the son comes out of the Father

the son is a part of his Father,

the part is a disassociated identity

there are two identity

there are two Gods

love occurs between them.

they are as human beings,

You really anthropomorphize them.

>Does the Father claim you to worship Iesa(Jesus)? Just give me only one verse !

>>Does Iesa command you to worship him?

>>>There is no obvious evidence either in the Old Testament or New Testament denotes worshipping Iesa .

>>>>Again, let us go over the historical stages through which your dogma went and faced:

From the beginning of creation, there is only one single Creator(Allah) --the Father in your doctrine .

In 325, Naecan Council agreed on that Iesa(Jesus) be the second God.

In 381, The First Council of Constantinople agreed on that the Holy Spirit be the third God.

This is the whole story .That is it.

Allah is above all what we say.

Thank you all.

Ayed

Ayed4all@hotmail.com

However, you say The Father begets which means that:

He gives birth to a son

Ayed, I had mentioned this to you several times before. I will repeat in case you had misunderstood.

To beget isn't necessarily to "give birth to". Beget simply means "Fathered". The Son, by his very nature, has a Father. That's it. The Son is begotten of the Father (He has a Father). But He wasn't "Made" by the Father. They have existed as Father and Son for eternity. That's how God IS! He Just IS that way. That is how we are BECAUSE God chose to make us in HIS image. You see. God is that way, He is Father and Son and the Love that bonds them. That's just the way He is! One God, but his nature is three persons (Father Son and Holy Spirit).

I think you keep looking at him as a product of us. We make him to be Father and Son because we look at ourselves and see father's and son's. But it is the reverse. God made us father's and son's because He IS that way. He has always been that way!

[Aloysius]

great job, jake

however, i wanna see if u can grasp wat i was tryin to say in the diagram

Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father. how about we say that does mean "born" instead of just "fathered"

what my reflection here was that at every point in history, Jesus Christ is being beggotten, being born. He was not born at one point in History, rather always born. at every point in time, He is born.

anyway, i shall quote from my Holy Books to prove this once and for all. i think we have answered ur question about "my God and your God" as Jesus was not only fully Divine, but fully human, and as a Human the Father is to be His God.

The Gospel according to Saint John Chapter 1

Chapter 1

The divinity and incarnation of Christ. John bears witness of him. He begins to call his disciples.

1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men.

it doesn't say "ETERNAL GOD" exactly, but it is there. it's all in interpretation. and we believe that God has guided our Church to interpret that correctly that Jesus was "in the beginning"=immortal "the Word of God"=beggotten of the Father

"ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM"=HE IS GOD!

Plus, when He says "I Am", that clearly references Himself as the very definition of existence, the Eternal Yahweh (I AM) God.

3-“Though Christ Jesus was in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God something to be grasped, rather, He humbled Himself to the form of a slave”>>>You really have two Gods.

Christ Jesus in the form of God, not 2 Gods

:Why did Jesus die?

because He loved us so much, He who knew no sin took on the sins of the world, but because He was the Almighty Immortal God, death could not overcome Him. He died to open the gates to heaven for all of us.

Fact: according to (John 20:17)you say Jesus is a God , then you are Gods along with him!.If you say”No” we are not gods , then Jesus is not a god!

::claps:: your best argument yet. however, when the bible says 'gods' we know from the Hebrew language it is synonymous with 'heavenly bodies' 'those who are or have been in the presence of God'

so really 'ye are Gods' is directed towards holy men and women and says that for their prayers and such they are in God's presence

and when Jesus cites it there, the gates to heaven had not yet been opened for fallen humanity, it shows He claims to be a heavenly body, one who has been in heaven, and He specifically focuses on himself when He calls Himself equal to the Father, showing that in Him is the fullness of God, and all those around Him are in the presence of God.

wow, the Written Word of God (the Bible) is deep!

srry if my thoughts are a bit unorganized.