Still Struggling Now And Then

[Brother Adam]

Dave, approved or unapproved I'm always somewhat weary of visions of the BVM. As they are not part of the deposit of faith, and Catholics are free to disagree with teachings that come out of them if the Church itself has not ruled on such a teaching.

Thank you though for the information. That was valuable insight.

[cmotherofpirl]

Have you read "[i]The Great Divorce[/i]" by C S Lewis yet?

[Aloysius]

when the Church approves an apparition it is saying its message is doctrinally sound (whether or not the actual apparition happened, the message is what the Church is concerned with)

so the message of an approved apparition will never be contrary to the truth about the faith.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 3 2004, 10:54 AM'] Have you read "[i]The Great Divorce[/i]" by C S Lewis yet? [/quote]
yes, a few years ago.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Lewis is a phenomenal writer (Cmom knows how much I love him, I quoted his [u]The Last Battle[/u] a while ago), but there are definately some doctrinal errors in it.

With regards to purgatory, it is a [i]condition of the soul[/i] in which the soul is purified. This neither asserts nor rules out a physical place corresponding to it, nor does it rule out time. Certainly, all of the mystical writings on purgatory clearly point to time existing, but not in the same manner as we know it.

Bro. Adam, if you are looking for a simple argument on "why there must be people in purgatory at the end of the age" I would like to give my thoughts, though I know they are not an authoritative answer:

I have not seen any official Church teaching stating that there must be people in purgatory until the second coming of Christ, but it seems to me that such a thing would be intuitive, seeing as it is logical to posit that at least [i]someone[/i] would die with venial sin on his or her soul in even the moment before the return of the savior.

Also, linked to this (albeit indirectly) I would like to respond, if I may, to the following:

[quote]And thus I struggle with praying for those in purgatory or giving our own merit to repair sin that has been forgiven, even if a stain still remains. The longest "time" in purgatory could be macroseconds to us.[/quote]

I maintain that you may very well be entirely correct with the last sentence, but I do not see how the first sentence would logically follow from it.

If your prayers will bring me to Christ even seemingly macroseconds sooner, I would urge you to pray for me with all your heart and soul. Remember, the soul in purgatory is desperately aware of its temporary seperation from God, and what could be more loving that doing everything you can to heal that seperation sooner? I maintain that even if your prayers for my soul only bring me to unity with Christ 1000th of a nanosecond sooner, those prayers would be an unrepayable gift.

Just my thoughts.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Brother Adam]

Thank you for your insight. That did help.

[Ash Wednesday]

You know, I think in a way we experience a foretaste of purgatory on earth. We experience suffering, but over time it is purifying if we allow it to be. Sometimes time to us is distorted. Ever notice how long a crummy day seems, and how vacations just don't seem to last long enough? And in a blink of an eye you are in awe that life seems to go by too fast?

I think in a similar way, one's "time in purgatory" -- or process, and the steps needed for purification, if you will, is almost the state of one's holiness. Like the state of the mind. The more holy we become, the more willing we are to accept purifying and suffering, the easier it seems, so "time" is shortened.

It's also, to me, like purgatory is a certain "part" of heaven's mansion with many rooms in it that Jesus spoke of. It's like the doorway and the hall that you pass through to enter.

Also reminds me of the Interior Castle that St. Teresa of Avila spoke of, but anyway....

As for hell, well, I don't think that's much of a process. I view it as falling off a cliff. :ph34r: or St. Teresa also described the soul in a state of mortal sin like something beautiful being dropped in a cesspool of black filth. :ph34r:


I wonder if I made any sense. Just my observations.

[Scofizzle]

I think about Purgatory like taking a shower before hoping into a spiffy looking neew tuxedo. Just how I've looked at it. doesn't really make any sense.

The thing about "how long we will be in purgatory" is a mystery to us. It will always be to us here on earth/. For purgatory is in God's time. But for the ease explanation we use incriments of time that apply on to us here on earth.

"With regards to purgatory, it is a condition of the soul in which the soul is purified. This neither asserts nor rules out a physical place corresponding to it, nor does it rule out time. Certainly, all of the mystical writings on purgatory clearly point to time existing, but not in the same manner as we know it."

-great explanation Jeff.


Some people who have been notoriously wicked repent at the last second, and God will not reject any penitent sinner. Such a deathbed penitent must atone for his lifelong transgressions. Northing defiled can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Purgatory is one of the most merciful aspects of God's love for us, and very consoling to the human heart. aptient who has the assurance of recovery willingly endures the surgeon's knife or other unpleasant rememdies. Purgatory is the vetibule of heaven

CCC# 1030
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven.

Unfortunately the Cathecism doesn't say anything about how long this purification takes. Only God truely knows when our souls will be ready to enter Heaven.


Peace out homies

[jasJis]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 2 2004, 11:22 PM'] And that is just it, there shouldn't be a striving for purgatory then. Purgatory is not a place. It is a process between judgement and heaven.

And thus I struggle with praying for those in purgatory or giving our own merit to repair sin that has been forgiven, even if a stain still remains. The longest "time" in purgatory could be macroseconds to us. [/quote]
Adam,
I understand your point. Even though I grew up attending Catholic schools, I always had a hard time reconciling YEARS in purgatory with purgatory being a process. This is how I resolved it.

As a soul is purged, to us it may be nano-seconds. To the soul, it will seem like years because simultaneously, it sees the beauty of Heaven, the Perfect Glory of God, the Joy of all the Angels and Saints, while at the same time it sees ALL of it's sins, the damage done to itself, how imperfect it is, how much Jesus suffered for them personally, how much it offended God, and still at the same time, the Forgiveness of God is burning away these imperfections and perfecting them so they can become perfect, like God, and join everyone (especially God) in Heaven. The regrets, the joys, the sorrows, the pain, the relief, etc. Our perceptions and conscieneness will not be limited to our physical reality like we were on earth. We are fully in tune with our spiritual being and our mind and comprehension isn't physically limited. It's got to be real torment to see what you are, what you could have been, what you should have been, and what you will be, through God's perspective, all at once. One nano-second MUST seem like a thousand years. How much will we desire grace to be repentent, to accept forgiveness, to need relief from our sorrows as our tears turn into dancing! We will ache with every spiritual element of our being for Grace!

Mean while, down on earth, we are praying for that soul, maybe years later. God, being outside of time and space, and Grace not being locked in physical rules, is receiving those prayers and gracing that soul with those prayers from the future. Don't forget, God knows everything and can easily know who will pray for souls even the day the World ends.

[Aloysius]

i don't understand why you are so attached to the nanosecond idea that you need to reconcile them...

who gave you the idea that because it is process it has to be real quick?

i'm just wondering, cuz i've never heard it like that. i always knew purgatory as the spiritual place you go to get purified before you reach heaven, and you stay there as long as you need

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 2 2004, 11:22 PM'] or giving our own merit to repair sin that has been forgiven, even if a stain still remains. [/quote]
What merit is that, exactly?

"[i]What merit have we before grace[/i], when our every good merit is produced in us only by grace and when God, in crowning our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts to us" - St. Augustine.

[Aloysius]

the work of grace in us heals our soul. thus when we allow grace to work through us to do good works, it merits healing to our soul. not of our own power, but of God's grace. thus prayer and fasting and penance is God's grace healing souls, and we can offer that up for the healing of other souls, namely the Church Suffering in Purgatory.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Icthus, if you dont mind listening to a brief response, I would like to provide an answer.

The Church maintains that the good works of "unregenerate" man is only good in the natural order, and is in no way supernaturally meritorious. However, through the sacrifice of Christ and the merits of his death and ressurection, our actions in the natural realm assume a degree of supernatural worth and thus, through Christ and Christ alone, our actions can indeed become meritorious in the supernatural realm.

In this way, man is utterly incapable of saving himself (as Pelagius asserted), but, by virtue of Christ's sacrifice, our actions assume a supernatural worth, and God, who is perfect justice, properly repays the merit of things done in the supernatural order with supernatural graces.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Apotheoun]

The process of salvation in the justified man is analogous to the incarnation of the Word. Thus, just as Christ's actions are theandric (divine and human), so too the actions of the justified man are divine and human. It is God who saves man, but He doesn't save us without our cooperation, but even this cooperation on the part of man is a gift of grace. As St. Augustine said, "God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How would you have consented, when you did not exist? But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without your willing it." [St. Augustine, Sermon 169:13]

The merits of the saints are gifts of God's grace, but they are also human actions.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 4 2004, 02:08 PM'] What merit is that, exactly?

"[i]What merit have we before grace[/i], when our every good merit is produced in us only by grace and when God, in crowning our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts to us" - St. Augustine. [/quote]
Hey, good job ICTHUS, you just quoted a great Catholic understanding of merit.

You do know that St. Paul spoke of his own works "filling up what is lacking in the cross" right?