"caire, Kecaritomene"

[StColette]

As a personal note I would like to add this is my first shot at trying to explain the meaning of Greek words lol So bear with me during this post I'm still learning. I couldn't fit the entire subject in the subject line hehehe.

[b]Proof Of Mary's Immaculate Conception & Sinlessness in Luke 1:28[/b]

[b]Luke 1:28 "Caire, kecaritomene"[/b]

By examining the meaning of the words which the angel Gabriel spoke to the Virgin Mary it is easy to see that she was immaculately conceived.

For Catholics it is no challenge in understanding that Mary was conceived without sin by simply reading the English version of the Bible verse Luke 1:28. Protestants, on the other hand, do not see beyond the literal meaning of the words "full of grace" or in certain Protestant Bibles "full of grace" is translated as " favored by God". While Catholics still have complete understanding of "favored by God" because the Church Fathers and Popes referred back to the Greek manuscript when declaring that Mary was conceived with out sin. Protestants do not carry on the same usage of the Greek manuscripts as Catholics do. They accept only the English form which merely states " full of grace" or "favored by God". So in order to clarify the true meaning behind the word kecaritomene which stands for "full of grace" in the English version of the Bible we must examine carefully the Greek.

The Angel Gabriel greets Mary as "Caire, kecharitomene!"

Caire means both "rejoice" and "hail"

Kecaritomene is used as a direct address, Gabriel is using the word kecaritomene as a replacement for Mary's name.

The root word of kecharitomene is charitoo which by definition means " to fill or endow with grace " After knowing the meaning of the root word it is clear that both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles use some form of the word "grace" or "favor".

The prefix to the word charitoo is [ke] which is a past participle which makes it clear that Mary's state of grace was preformed before Gabriel's proclamation.
The word kecharitomene not only should mean "full of grace" but rather the word used in the passive participle form means "made full of grace". The term used in the perfect participle as it is used in the Greek manuscript means a perfect and lasting sign of grace.

[quote]So let's check out the grammar of it. John Pacheco says the following:
"kecharitomene".. is a perfect passive participle. It means one endowed with favour or grace in a "permanent or perfect" fashion. According to Greek grammatical lexicons, the perfect stem of a Greek verb means the 'perpetuation of a permanent result or completed action'. [/quote]

Thus since the words base meaning is a perfect and lasting sign of grace this means Mary would had to have been immaculately conceived. The word's meaning which renders " made full of grace " implies that even at Mary's conception she was "made full of grace." Since we all believe that life begins at conception there is no way of stating the use of this word in any other form. Mary "made" = "conceived" full of grace.

[b]Kecaritomene- Noun and Verb[/b]

The word kecaritomene can be both used in the form of a verb or in the form of a noun. When the angel Gabriel greeted Mary, he was using kecaritomene in the form of a noun or pronoun, he was replacing her name, Mary, with this word. By calling Mary by this address the name is a direct reflection on the characteristic quality of Mary. Above all the angel Gabriel calls Mary, kecaritomene even before using her real name. Kecaritomene is therefore the name in which God sees Mary which is " full of grace ".

The word kecaritomene is used rarely in the Bible, in fact, I can only find one other time in which it is found and that is in the Letter to the Ephesians. The use of kecaritomene in the Letter to the Ephesians is used in the form of a verb, which means to "bestow grace".

God Bless,
Jennie

P.S. I couldn't use Greek symbols

Edited September 2, 2004 by StColette

[Theoketos]

That was great!

Couple notes: I think that you should give the verse from Ephesians and explain why they differ.

It seems to me that we do not have to limit our understanding of the truth to biblical proofs, so at least citing an early Church Father would be good.

Other then that I think that you did an awesome Job!

[Cure of Ars]

St Colette you are becoming a prolific tract writer. Dust was talking about making a apologetics book a couple of months back. Have you thought about writing anything for this?

This is just my two cents so take it with a grain of salt. We have to be careful not to lump all Protestants into one position. Protestants hold many views and I would say that there are some Protestants that do go back to the Greek manuscripts. They just choose not to interpret caire, kecaritomene literally because it does not fit into their theological tradition. But besides this, I think your tract was good. God bless

[StColette]

Okay here is my addition about Ephesians. I can't edit my post so I just had to add it this way.

The other time that kecharitomene is used, is in its root word form of "caritow" or "charitoo". However, the meaning is significantly different because the indicator [[b]echaritosen[/b]] form is used.

Ephesians 1:6
eiv epainon dochv thv xaritov autou hv [b]exaritwsen[/b] hmav en tw hgaphmenw,

Eph:1:6:

"To the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved"

1. We are - caritow charitoo khar-ee-to’-o - "given favor"

Used as a verb in Ephesians 1:6 meaning:

1. to make graceful
charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour to honour with blessings

The use of the word here is in no way the same use as in Luke 1:28. He "bestowed grace" or He "graced" shows a momentary action and doesn't signify a permanent state of grace which is evident in Luke 1:28. It also does not hold the same meaning since the use of the it in Luke is defined as being "made full of grace".

Edited September 2, 2004 by StColette

[StColette]

I've still been unable to find Church Fathers on the subject of kecharitomene itself. I'll keep looking though.

And you're right Cure, I should have stated that part a little bit better than what I did, because I know that there are always exceptions

I had heard only a small part about a apologetics book that Dust wants to make. If he wants me to I would be more than happy to write something for it

Thanks guys for the help and support! Yall are awesome

God Bless,
Jennie

[goldenchild17]

Help me understand this, then.

[quote]Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound[/quote]

This is used by some rather educated Protestants to show that if this is true, that Mary was full of grace, then she must have also sinned. I realize there is the difference between sanctifying grace and actual grace. But I guess I need a refresher on it. How is the differing powers of the two types of grace shown in Scripture?

[toledo_jesus]

wow...I just got asked a question about this same thing, not five minutes ago. I was clueless so I thought I'd check here, and here it is...God is Awesome.
StColette you are cool.

[StColette]

So kecharitomene means "you who were and continue to be full of and completed in grace". Now grace is not mere unmerited favor, but God's gift of spiritual life and communion with Himself. Sin and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves us from sin (Eph 2:5, 8). So Mary's fullness of grace indicates a complete absence of sin. Thus Luke 1:28 provides a second hint at Mary's sinlessness.

[url="http://www.geocities.com/mysticrose.geo/marian4.html"]http://www.geocities.com/mysticrose.geo/marian4.html[/url]

that's in response with using kecaritomene and how it still upholds after the use of Rom 5:20. I dunno if that statement above will help yall but I hope it will But I'll keep looking some more

God Bless,
Jennie

[StColette]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 2 2004, 03:10 PM'] wow...I just got asked a question about this same thing, not five minutes ago. I was clueless so I thought I'd check here, and here it is...God is Awesome.
StColette you are cool. [/quote]
Yaaay !! I'm glad you found the answer you needed. Apologetics phorum is awesome everyone should come in more often btw thanks you're cool too

[ATF90]

You gave Romans 5:20-21 to show that grace and sin are opposed. This same verse(v. 20) is given to me to show that Mary must have sinned if she is full of grace...
And I don't quite understand what the Ephesians verse is saying.

(This is goldenchild on my brother's username...)

Edited September 2, 2004 by ATF90

[StColette]

I'm still trying to research the 5:20-21 verses, I can't find a good commentary on it to help me so I'm having to pull together pieces. That comment that I posted was from a page in which it was discussing kecaritomene.

{quote]This same verse(v. 20) is given to me to show that Mary must have sinned if she is full of grace[/quote]

In understanding the meaning of kecaritomene, it means that she was "made full of grace" "made" meaning "created" full of grace. She could not have sinned before she was even created by God.

The Ephesians verse is the only other time in which the root word of kecaritomene, [caritow] is used. And in that verse it is used as verb meaning "to bestow" as in to bestow grace. When [caritow] is used in Luke 1:28 it is used as a noun and it means "made full of grace".

does that help any ?

[goldenchild17]

I'm still not really understanding it very well. That verse(Rom. 5:20) does seem to say that where grace is, sin is. So according to that verse if Mary is full of grace, then wouldn't she have sin also? That's the way I'm reading it.

[StColette]

Okay

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

This is talking about sin after being born, it is not speaking of original sin. But since Mary was immaculately conceived she was free from all sin, since original sin is what causes us to sin. God spared Mary through His graces which He gave to her at her very creation.

Kecaritomene " made full of grace " meaning created filled with God's grace. And kecaritomene is used as a permanent grace one that can not be lost. In knowing this we must also understand that if one does sin we lose our grace. But since Mary has a permanent grace such as this one she did not sin.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Sep 2 2004, 07:14 PM'] I'm still not really understanding it very well.  That verse(Rom. 5:20) does seem to say that where grace is, sin is.  So according to that verse if Mary is full of grace, then wouldn't she have sin also?  That's the way I'm reading it. [/quote]

[quote]But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person's transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many. (Romans 5:15) [/quote]


Grace is a gift, it is not sin. Because of God's mercy where there is great sin he gives great grace to reconcile the sin. Romans 5:12-21 is talking about original sin. Mary did not have original sin through grace. She received the grace that was brought to the world threw Jesus death on the Cross but she received this grace early and from the moment of her conception to the end of her life until now and in the future.

Mary is the new eve. Just like the early Church father St. Irenaeus said: "Thus then, the knot of the disobedience of Eve was untied through the obedience of Mary." In Romans 5 :14 it gives the typology that Adam was a type of Jesus. Adam through his disobedience brought sin and death into the world. Jesus through his obedience brings acquittal and everlasting life. Mary is the new eve who unlike the first eve obeys God and through her yes, Jesus (the word of God) comes into the world and dwells among us so that we can have life. Mary and the first eve both did not have original sin although eve fell into sin through her disobedience. Just like Jesus and Adam did not have original sin although Adam fell into sin because of his disobedience.

Edited September 3, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[StColette]

Thanks Cures