Theoketos Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 I would agree with Andy. The Pains of Purgation are only analogous to the fires of Hell, not equivocal, for at least Purgation ends and the soul is relieved ending up in full communion with God, whilst Hell is eternal. Ave Maria, James III Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat_Voluntas_Tua Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 True that Theoketos... (PS-James, I am in Logic and we are talking about univocal, equivocal, and analogous words/names.) Logic, the art of defing and reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 So at least every agrees that they are not univocal...hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Hey Fiat (nice name), we went through this hell-is-solely-a-state-of-being before. In the gospels Our Lord spoke of those going into the[b] fire prepared [/b]for the demons...the psalms and NT speak of the outer darkness; where the worm dieth not... Jesus repeatedly likens hell to Gehena, a place. The [i]Denzinger Sources of Catholic Dogma[/i], in the Systematic Index (XIV a) on hell, includes the following: [i]where they are punished by [b]different[/b] punishments (493a), [b]namely[/b], by loss or by the lack of the vision of God for sin both original and personal (321, 410, 464, 693), [b]and[/b] by the sensation or torments (of fire) by which those "who had lived evilly" are punished (40, 160b, 228a, 410, 429, 531, 714, 1677).[/i] Our Lady of Fatima showed the seers the vision of hell, complete with demons/damned souls in motion "without equilibrium"; "amid shrieks and groans", and most notably, fire. The Church approved the Fatima apparitions. "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins: [color=green][i][color=red]save us from the fires of hell[/color][/i][/color]. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat_Voluntas_Tua Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Right...I am saying pain and corporal punishment's could be what we suffer in Purgatory...This however is far different than Hell. Because Hell is a complete and utterly lack of God in the damned. This is far far far worse than any pain, or any purifying fire no matter how painful it maybe. Those in Purgatory are assured Heaven...Those in Hell are Damned. With Charity, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 [quote name='Fiat_Voluntas_Tua' date='Sep 1 2004, 02:48 PM'] So is they are assured their eternal Salvation in Heaven, how can they be in Hell, or suffering the fires of Hell while in Purgatory (as you said in you later post, "the same pains of sense as the damned.") Because the pains the 'Damned' are in the "state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God." This is the pain those in Hell suffer, not necessarily those in Purgatory suffer. Now it could be simillar, but it can't be the same. [/quote] [quote]Right...I am saying pain and corporal punishment's could be what we suffer in Purgatory...This however is far different than Hell. Because Hell is a complete and utterly lack of God in the damned. This is far far far worse than any pain, or any purifying fire no matter how painful it maybe. Those in Purgatory are assured Heaven...Those in Hell are Damned. With Charity, Andy [/quote] I think the problem here is we have confounded our terms. "So is they are assured their eternal Salvation in Heaven, how can they be in Hell, or suffering the fires of Hell while in Purgatory (as you said in you later post, "the same pains of sense as the damned.")" They DO have the same pains of SENSE as the damned. That is, the pain of fire is the same in Hell and Purgatory. This should not be confused with the pain of LOSS. The pain of loss is the loss of God for all eternity. The damned suffer this, and it is the greater of the two pains in Hell. The souls in Purgatory do not suffer an eternal loss of God because they, as you said, are assured of their salvation and suffer freely. The only think I was addressing (in addition to the fact that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are places--thank you Donna for the help) is that the pain of sense (fire) is the exact same as the damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightoftheRosary Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Ok I know there is a mention of praying to the dead in the book of Tobit, a book that is not in protestant bibles! If anyone can go from their please expand! -Knight- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 I believe it was in Maccabese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 in revelations it says that nothing unclean shall enter the kingdom of God this being established, it should be noted that we, as humans, will never achieve this "cleanliness" that is spoken of. Because of that, there is the necessity for a "middle ground" for those who have not turned completely away from God and are thus deserving of hell, but also not completely pure and therefore deserving of heaven purgatory has its roots in the word purge i believe and this refers to the purging of any bad so that we may be clean and pure, fit for the kingdom of God make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat_Voluntas_Tua Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 Blessings HartfordWhalers... Isn't Purgatory a purifying Fire? that's its' purpose, to purify... So if the fires of Hell where the same as the fires of Purgatory, than the Fires of Hell must also Purify...(Now I am not positive, but I am pretty sure the fires of Hell do not purify Souls.) CCC[b]1031[/b] The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: [i]As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, [b]there [u]is a purifying fire[/u][/b]. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[/i] CCC[b]1035[/b] The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they [b][u]suffer the punishments of hell[/u], [/b]"eternal fire." I may be confussed, but how can the fires or Purgatory and Hell be the same if the fires of Hell are "eternal fires" and the fires of Purgatory are only temporal? It seems like there are two different fires...one is the [u]"suffering of the punishments of hell"[/u] and the other "[u]is a purifying fire." [/u] I am not trying to prove you wrong, just trying to understand what the truth is. With Charity, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 regarding the place vs. state of being thing... for some reason i have a hard time seeing the fundamental difference between the two sides. both sides say they suffer spiritual pains and pains of sense it appears the only difference is that one says it is a place, while the other says it is a state of being, not the nature of it so much spirits do not take up space, and no one that passes through purgatory has a body, so how could it be a place in conventional terms? it takes up no space but all spirits being purified are just below heaven, suffering purifying pain on their way towards heaven. in this sense would purgatory be refered to as a place. it is not a place that takes up space, but a stage or state which, when speaking of where souls go, would be refered to as a spiritual place. Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are all spiritual places, not physical places, and as spiritual places they are all spiritual states of being. because there are alread 2 physical glorified bodies there, Heaven must also have attributes of the phsycal world, and because in the end the bodies of the just will be raised, Heaven will then be perfectly united to physical creation, the new earth will be in the Beatific Vision, right in Heaven, and all Creation will be perfected. as far as i know, hell will remain a place of the eternally damned souls, and part of their punishment is separation from their bodies for all eternity. so Hell is not a physical place. Heaven is kinda a physical place so much as the glorified earth can be assumed into heaven as well as the glorified bodies of the Just. does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader_4 Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 Sterling i really appreciate the attituted your taking towards this. I am glad you are keeping an open mind and are being open to possibilites yet remaning critical and questioning things. Its something we can all learn from both Catholic and non Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat_Voluntas_Tua Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 What I meant by "State of Being" is that it is not what we know as "a place" but more like you said Aloysius..."a spiritual place." -UIOGD- Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sterling Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 ARG. I know that i said i would get back to this like 2 weeks ago ,but you know how life is.... Anyway, I think i understand the confession thing now, thanks to all of you i found all that yummy scripture about confessing to your fellow Christians, and how that gives you a sense of accountability. I do not, however, believe that the priest can grant you forgiveness, that power belongs in the hands of God. Don't get me wrong, i really appreciate all of your replies concerning Purgatory, but i still don’t believe in the concept. I think that Purgatory is based on some pretty far stretched interpretations (but then again, what denomination doesn’t base at least some of their beliefs on some pretty stretched interpretations?) I would really like to say a few more things, but i need to go study for a Pre-Calculus test So thank you all once again for all your time spent on these posts. I think that you people have truly given me a deeper respect and understanding of the Catholic faith. Rock on Catholics! Sterling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sterling Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 ARG. I know that i said i would get back to this like 2 weeks ago ,but you know how life is.... Anyway, I think i understand the confession thing now, thanks to all of you i found all that yummy scripture about confessing to your fellow Christians, and how that gives you a sense of accountability. I do not, however, believe that the priest can grant you forgiveness, that power belongs in the hands of God. Don't get me wrong, i really appreciate all of your replies concerning Purgatory, but i still don’t believe in the concept. I think that Purgatory is based on some pretty far stretched interpretations (but then again, what denomination doesn’t base at least some of their beliefs on some pretty stretched interpretations?) I would really like to say a few more things, but i need to go study for a Pre-Calculus test So thank you all once again for all your time spent on these posts. I think that you people have truly given me a deeper respect and understanding of the Catholic faith. Rock on Catholics! Sterling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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