Questions About Catholicism

[Guest Sterling]

Greetings My fellow Christians,
Hello, i am a 17 year old Non-Denominational christian who has been called to be a pastor of a church in my future. I Have known of a few things in the Catholic faith that deeply intrigue me, and was wondering if you could help me out.

1.) Confession. What is that about? Why should we have to go to a priest to confess our sins? In the bible, It is talked about that the High priest would once a year go into the holy of holies (the place where God dwelt in the temple) to make a sacrafice to forgive the people's sins. The high priest was the only person in all Israel allowed to go into the holy of holies, and only once year. The Holy of Holies was seperated from the rest of the temple by a huge (and i mean huge, some scholars belive it was upwards of 2 feet thick) curtain. When Jesus died on the cross as the ultimate sacrafice, that curtain was torn in two. (read Matthew 27:51) The tearing of the curtain symbolized that because of Christ's sacrafice we no longer have to go through a priest to get forgivness. We can go directly to the source and talk directly to God. So please explain to me why some people belive that they must confess their sins to a priest instead of talking to God?

2.) Purgatory. To be frank, what the heck is that? I am truly stumped by the concept of purgatory. I am by no means a bible scholar, but i really cannot find any scriptural back-up for the idea of purgatory....please, please help me understand this.

Thank all of you in advance for helping me out. And i really hope that i did not offend any person, that was not my goal. My goal is simply to get my questions answered.

God bless,
Sterling

[Crusader_4]

Hi Sterling and WELCOME!!! I am going to attempt to stab at your answers i am very young (16) and quite inexpereinced at apologetics but i am going to give it my best shot. (There are people here that will give quite a better answer then i will i promise).

1. Lets talk about Confession, I am sure in your church as in many protestant churchs when we sin or really suffer from the actions we have done we feel guilty or we feel quite alone even tho we pray etc. So often we would talk to our pastors and church leaders for advice etc. Well that is part of confession strengthening up getting advice etc. But confession takes it a bit further. It is something called a sacrament. A sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to bestow grace. It is important to not that the PRIEST does not forgive the person it is Christ that is forgiving the person through the priest. The Priest is not taking anything away from Christ and it is not on the Priests power that his forgiveness is taking place but rather by Christs Power and his commision.

Lets look at what the Scripture has to say about it:

Matthew 9:6 "I will prove to you, then, that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Right pretty straightforward but if you skip down there is an interesting note)
Matthew 9:8 When the people saw it, they were afraid and praised God for giving such authority to men. (notice that its not "A man" it is men...pluarl signifiy that this authority Jesus passed on to others)

John 20:22 "Then he breathed on and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (In this passage from John is where Jesus gives his apostles the ability to forgive and retain sins. Also an interesting note here is that we see the need for confession. How can the apostles forgive the sins or retain the sins if people do not tell them what they are? there needs to be some sort of confession to the apostles. In the Early Church the confession was often public but as time procedded it then became more private however)

I am not sure how knowledgeable with the Church fathers you are so excuse my ignorance (not being offensive). They were the people that carried on the faith and teachings of the Early Church. Many of them Knew Jesus personally or many were even the disciples of the apostles and knew them personally. It was upon these men that the Tradition of faith was perserved so it was not skewed or mislead by such early heresies as gnotiscm, arainsm, the like. They have written many books and letters and although not inspired they give us a very good insight into how and what the apostles taught here are some of their writtings about confession:

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure"
(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]). (NOTE: the date that this document predates the gospels if you are interested in this document i can easily provide it for you very short and is more of a manual of Early Christian life)

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]). (By INGATIUS OF ANTIOCH who knew the apostles first hand and was good friends with them...I also believe he is the first person to use the word catholic in 107 A.D.)

I could provide more if your interested. I hope that gives you some idea on what catholics believe in regards to confession.

-William


(sources consulted: www.catholic.com and Bible quotes from Good News, New Testament: Canadian Bible Society:1976)

Edited September 1, 2004 by Crusader_4

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

Purgatory is a "State of Being"...it is not a physical place. It is a purification process. Purification of what? Of Sin... Jesus clearly stated that...

[quote]"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, [b]nor in the world to come[/b]." Matt. 12:32[/quote]

Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death (because if he says "neither in this world, [b]Nor the Next[/b]" this proves that since there are somethings that can't be forgiven...than there must be somethings that can be forgiven. Otherwise there is no need to clearify [b]"Nor the Next[/b].") Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven. There is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Also...In [b]1 Peter 3:19; 4:6[/b] - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

[b]Rev. 21:27[/b] - "nothing unclean shall enter heaven."
Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many people do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Follow me on this one...picture Heaven as a great imense light...and you know what happens when you are sleeping and someone turns on a light...you are blinded and can't see anything and it hurts. Well what happens when you slowly let your eyes adjust to the light? You can see, but it takes time. Purgatory does the same thing...It purifies your soul so that when you see God face to face your soul is ready...but just like letting your eyes adjust to the light...it takes time.

Hope this helped...With Charity,

Andy

[JP2Iloveyou]

Sterling, thank you for your interest in Catholicism. First of all, we must go to Confession because Christ says so. In John 20: 23, he says to the Apostles, the first priests, "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, whose sins you hold bound are held bound." If the Apostles have the power to bind and loose, and logically their successors, they have to know what to bind and loose in the first place. Since they are not mind readers, this can only be done in Confession. Also, in the letter of James it says quite clearly, "Confess your sins to one another." How can you be sure that your interpretation of Mathew 27: 51 is correct?

For your second question, let me first explain what purgatory is. Purgatory is a place where a soul that has died in a state of grace but not a state of perfection goes to be cleansed before being "allowed" to enter the divine presence of God--Heaven. Since nothing imperfect can enter the presence of God, our souls, tarnished by stains of sin in this life, must be cleansed of that sin. Purgatory is NOT a little heaven as some people like to call it. It is NOT a second chance at heaven. It is the just punishment and reparation for our sins committed on this earth. 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7 speak of "cleansing fires." These clearly are not the fires of hell, which is a punishing fire, not a cleansing fire. I hope this helps a little. Again, I'm glad you are here. Please feel free to ask anything you would like to know. There are some very knowledgeable posters on this board.

[Scofizzle]

I could never begin to articulate the Chruch's teachings like my fellow phatmassers have. What I can say is......there is a reason you found this site. Don't be afraid to ask questions about anything and everything, don't be afraid to step out of your comfort zone.
much love,
Your Brother in Christ,
Scofizzle

[StColette]

[quote name='Sterling' date='Aug 31 2004, 11:19 PM'] 1.) Confession. What is that about? Why should we have to go to a priest to confess our sins? In the bible, It is talked about that the High priest would once a year go into the holy of holies (the place where God dwelt in the temple) to make a sacrafice to forgive the people's sins. The high priest was the only person in all Israel allowed to go into the holy of holies, and only once year. The Holy of Holies was seperated from the rest of the temple by a huge (and i mean huge, some scholars belive it was upwards of 2 feet thick) curtain. When Jesus died on the cross as the ultimate sacrafice, that curtain was torn in two. (read Matthew 27:51) The tearing of the curtain symbolized that because of Christ's sacrafice we no longer have to go through a priest to get forgivness. We can go directly to the source and talk directly to God. So please explain to me why some people belive that they must confess their sins to a priest instead of talking to God? [/quote]
I go ahead and apologize for the length of this post LOL

Public Confessions

Acts 19:18-19

18 Many of those who had become believers came forward and openly acknowledged their former practices.
19 Moreover, a large number of those who had practiced magic collected their books and burned them in public. They calculated their value and found it to be fifty thousand silver pieces.

This passage is held both as a public confession of faith and a public confession of sins. Those who had practiced magic have turned away from this sin and are publicly displaying this by burning their books.

James 5:16
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

This tells us that we are to confess our sins to one another. In the case of within the Catholic Church, our Priest continue to practice the authority that was given to the Apostles from Christ.

Mt 3:5-6
5 At that time Jerusalem, all Judea, and the whole region around the Jordan were going out to him
6 and were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they acknowledged their sins.

Mk 1:5
5 People of the whole Judean countryside and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they acknowledged their sins.

While being baptized in the Jordan, these people made public acknowledgement of their sins.

Nm 5:5-7
5 The LORD said to Moses,
6 "Tell the Israelites: If a man (or a woman) commits a fault against his fellow man and wrongs him, thus breaking faith with the LORD,
7 he shall confess the wrong he has done, restore his ill-gotten goods in full, and in addition give one fifth of their value to the one he has wronged.

A person must make public acknowledgement of their wrong doing to those that were wronged and he must make things right again. And here we see that when we commit faults against our fellow man we break from faith with the Lord, and thus we must acknowledge are wrong doings to Him as well as to the person(s) we have wronged.

2 Sam 12:13
13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan answered David: "The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.

Here we say David making oral acknowledgement to Nathan, that he (David) has sinned against God.

Neh 9:2-3
2 Those of Israelite descent separated themselves from all who were of foreign extraction, then stood forward and confessed their sins and the guilty deeds of their fathers.
3 When they had taken their places, they read from the book of the law of the LORD their God, for a fourth part of the day, and during another fourth part they made their confession and prostrated themselves before the LORD their God.

Public confession or sins evident within the Bible yet again.

Baruch 1:13
13 Pray for us also to the Lord, our God; we have sinned against the Lord, our God, and the wrath and anger of the Lord have not yet been withdrawn from us at the present day.

This is yet another reference to acknowledging oral admission of sins.

Another argument that has been presented to me is that “ All my sins are forgiven past, present, and future...at Calvary” This comes into the terms of “once saved always saved.” While part of that statement is correct one still must be careful of how this view is taken. The Catholic Church upholds that through Christ’s Death for us on the cross that our sins may be reconciled (2 Cor5:18-21). Christ’s death on the cross for us was in fact for past, present, and future sins that they may be forgiven, but we must still ask for that forgiveness from God and repent for our sins..

Biblical References for this practice:

Old Testament

Ps 51: 1-19
1 For the leader. A psalm of David,
2 when Nathan the prophet came to him after his affair with Bathsheba.
3 Have mercy on me, God, in you goodness; in you abundant compassion blot out my offense.
4 Wash away all my guilt; from my sin cleanse me.
5 For I know my offense; my sin is always before me.
6 Against you alone have I sinned; I have done such evil in your sight
That you are just in your sentence blameless when you condemn.
7 True, I was born guilty, a sinner, even as my mother conceived me.
8 Still, you insist on sincerity of heart; in my inmost being teach me wisdom.
9 Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me; make me whiter than snow.
10 Let me hear sounds of joy and gladness let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
11 Turn away you face from my sins; blot out all my guilt.
12 A clean heart create for me, God; renew in me a steadfast spirit.
13 Do not drive me from your presence, nor take from me your holy spirit.
14 Restore my joy in your salvation; sustain in me a willing spirit.
15 I will teach the wicked your ways, that sinners may return to you.
16 Rescue me from death, God, my saving God, that my tongue may praise your healing power.
17 Lord, open my lips; my mouth will proclaim your praise.
18 For you do not desire sacrifice; a burnt offering you would not accept.
19 My sacrifice, God, is a broke spirit; God, do not spurn a broken, humbled heart.

David confesses to the sins he has committed and ask for the forgiveness of God. Although this is from the Old Testament we are not to forget that the Bible should be taken in its entirety. We still learning and gain knowledge from the books of the Old Testament, even in regards to the confession of sins.

Ps 38:19
19 I acknowledge my guilt and grieve over my sin.

David confesses his sin and grieves over his sin because he is truly sorry for sinning against God.

Prv 28:13
13 He who conceals his sins prospers not, but he who confesses and forsakes them obtains mercy.

This verse states clearly that those who confess their sins and turn away from them shall receive mercy.

Sir 4:26
26 Be not ashamed to acknowledge your guilt, but of your ignorance rather be ashamed.

This plainly tells us that we should not be ashamed to speak of our sins, it is human pride that makes people ashamed to confess our sins.

New Testament

Lk 24:46-47
46 And he said to them, “Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day
47 and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Scripture was written foretelling that Christ, the Messiah, would preach about the repentance of sins.

Mt 6:12
12 and forgive us our debts.
as we forgive our debtors;

Christ teaches us this within the Lord’s Prayer so that we ask God to forgive our sins but it also makes note that we must forgive those who wrong us for in scripture it says:

Mt 6:14,15
14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

Another argument I’ve come across is this: “ Well, I’ve asked God for forgiveness, I don’t have to do penance for it!”

Penance should be done after one has confessed there sins. Jesus Christ speaks of this in Luke about how we must make restitution for our sins.
Luke 9:8

8 But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, "Behold, half of my possessions, Lord, I shall give to the poor, and if I have extorted anything from anyone I shall repay it four times over."

This verse shows us that we should make restitution to those we have wronged.

The Old Testament also speaks on making restitution for sins.

Nm 5:5-7
5 The LORD said to Moses,
6 "Tell the Israelites: If a man (or a woman) commits a fault against his fellow man and wrongs him, thus breaking faith with the LORD,
7 he shall confess the wrong he has done, restore his ill-gotten goods in full, and in addition give one fifth of their value to the one he has wronged.

We must confess our sins and restore ourselves into the good graces of God and those we have wronged. We must make restitution for the wrongs we have done against both God and man.

Yet another argument that is given regarding Confession of sins goes as follows:” A priest can not forgive the sins of man only God can.”

There is extreme Biblical proof that shows Christ giving the authority to forgive sins to His apostles.

John 20:21-23
21 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

First taking, “ Receive the holy Spirit” this part takes us back to Genesis 2:7, when God breathed unto the first man, Adam, and just as Adam came to life from God, so do the Apostles of Christ, receive from Him a spiritual life. Now in John 20:23 we clearly see Jesus giving that apostles authority to forgive sins. And since the Catholic Church is founded on Apostolic Truth the authority to forgive sins is also passed onto the Priests of God’s Church.

Mt 18:18
18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Christ gives the apostles authority to bind and loose teachings. The Catholic Church is founded on the Apostolic Truth thus the Sacrament of Confession is bound on Earth and in Heave through the authority of the apostles which came from Christ.

In regard to the confession of sins and repentance yet another false statement is brought up “ If I should die in the state of sin before I confess I would still get into Heaven” this comes back to something I wrote about early and that is the belief of “once saved always saved” The Bible clearly tells us that no sin shall enter Heaven.

Rv. 21:27
27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies.

This is why we must confess our sins as often as possible because we never know when we may leave this earth. This is why when we have mortal sin(s) on our soul we are to partake in the Sacrament of Confession which is bond in the Church through the authority of the Apostles, whom received this authority from Christ. Now in the case of dying with venial sins then you would be sent to Purgatory where you will purge your venial sins.

So in closing this tract I hope that I have made it clear the necessity to ask for the forgiveness of sins, the authority of the Catholic Church to have the Sacrament of Confession, and to do penance for our sins.

Go mbeannaí Dia is Muire duit,
Jennie

[MorphRC]

Guud stuff. Dont need my stuff

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Sterling' date='Sep 1 2004, 01:19 AM'] Greetings My fellow Christians,
Hello, i am a 17 year old Non-Denominational christian who has been called to be a pastor of a church in my future. I Have known of a few things in the Catholic faith that deeply intrigue me, and was wondering if you could help me out.

[/quote]
Welcome to the phatmass phamily!!!

We have many young converts you will be interested in meeting here.

There is a check-in thread on open mic if you want to introduce yourself there or stop in the cafe for snacks, and don't forget to visit the arcade.

[homeschoolmom]

and don't forget the apologetics section...

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Fiat_Voluntas_Tua' date='Sep 1 2004, 12:07 AM'] Purgatory is a "State of Being"...it is not a physical place.  It is a purification process.  Purification of what? Of Sin...  Jesus clearly stated that... [/quote]
Hm.... It seems that the Church has taught quite the contrary. Just as Hell and Heaven are not mere states of being, neither is Purgatory. For example, take the Baltimore Catechism:

414. Q. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
"Punishment,"--that is, temporal punishment, already explained to you. After the general judgment there will be Heaven and Hell, but no Purgatory, for there will be no men living or dying upon the earth in its present condition to go there. All will be dead and judged and sent to their final abodes. Those in Purgatory are the friends of God; and knowing Him as they do now, they would not go into His holy presence with the slightest stain upon their souls; still they are anxious for their Purgatory to be ended that they may be with God. They suffer, we are told, the same pains of sense as the damned; but they suffer willingly, for they know that it is making them more pleasing to God, and that one day it will all be over and He will receive them into Heaven. Their salvation is sure, and that thought makes them happy. If, therefore, you believe any of your friends are in Purgatory, you should help them all you can, and try by your prayers and good works to shorten their time of suffering. They will help you--though they cannot help themselves--by their prayers. And oh, when they are admitted into Heaven, how they will pray for those that have helped them out of Purgatory! If you do this great charity, God will, when you die, put in some good person's heart to pray for you while you suffer in Purgatory. There must be a Purgatory, for one who dies with the slightest stain of sin upon his soul cannot enter Heaven, and yet God would not send him to Hell for so small a sin. But why does God punish those He loves? Why does He not forgive everything? He punishes because He is infinitely just and true. He warned them that if they did certain things they would be punished; and they did them, and God must keep His promise. Moreover He is just, and must give to everyone exactly what he deserves.

Summa Theologica:

Whether the pains of Purgatory surpass all the temporal pains of this life?

Objection 1. It would seem that the pains of Purgatory do not surpass all the temporal pains of this life. Because the more passive a thing is the more it suffers if it has the sense of being hurt. Now the body is more passive than the separate soul, both because it has contrariety to a fiery agent, and because it has matter which is susceptive of the agent's quality: and this cannot be said of the soul. Therefore the pain which the body suffers in this world is greater than the pain whereby the soul is cleansed after this life.

Objection 2. Further, the pains of Purgatory are directly ordained against venial sins. Now since venial sins are the least grievous, the lightest punishment is due to them, if the measure of the stripes is according to the measure of the fault. Therefore the pain of Purgatory is the lightest of all.

Objection 3. Further, since the debt of punishment is an effect of sin, it does not increase unless the sin increases. Now sin cannot increase in one whose sin is already remitted. Therefore if a mortal sin has been remitted in a man who has not fully paid the debt of punishment, this debt does not increase when he dies. But while he lived he was not in debt to the extent of the most grievous punishment. Therefore the pain that he will suffer after this life will not be more grievous to him than all other pains of this life.

On the contrary, Augustine says in a sermon (xli De Sanctis): "This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world."

Further, the more universal a pain is the greater it is. Now the whole separate soul is punished, since it is simple: which is not the case with the body. Therefore this, being the punishment of the separate soul, is greater than any pain suffered by the body.

I answer that, In Purgatory there will be a twofold pain; one will be the pain of loss, namely the delay of the divine vision, and the pain of sense, namely punishment by corporeal fire. With regard to both the least pain of Purgatory surpasses the greatest pain of this life. For the more a thing is desired the more painful is its absence. And since after this life the holy souls desire the Sovereign Good with the most intense longing--both because their longing is not held back by the weight of the body, and because, had there been no obstacle, they would already have gained the goal of enjoying the Sovereign Good--it follows that they grieve exceedingly for their delay. Again, since pain is not hurt, but the sense of hurt, the more sensitive a thing is, the greater the pain caused by that which hurts it: wherefore hurts inflicted on the more sensible parts cause the greatest pain. And, because all bodily sensation is from the soul, it follows of necessity that the soul feels the greatest pain when a hurt is inflicted on the soul itself. That the soul suffers pain from the bodily fire is at present taken for granted, for we shall treat of this matter further on [Cf. Supplement, 70, 3]. Therefore it follows that the pain of Purgatory, both of loss and of sense, surpasses all the pains of this life.

Some, however, prove this from the fact that the whole soul is punished, and not the body. But this is to no purpose, since in that case the punishment of the damned would be milder after the resurrection than before, which is false.

Reply to Objection 1. Although the soul is less passive than the body, it is more cognizant of actual suffering [passionis]: and where the sense of suffering is greater, there is the greater pain, though the suffering be less.

Reply to Objection 2. The severity of that punishment is not so much a consequence of the degree of sin, as of the disposition of the person punished, because the same sin is more severely punished then than now. Even so a person who has a better temperament is punished more severely by the same sentence than another; and yet the judge acts justly in condemning both for the same crimes to the same punishment.

This suffices for the Reply to the Third Objection.

(from newadvent.net)

The pain of fire in Purgatory is the same as that of Hell. Unless one claims that Hell is a mere state of being (which is condemned by the Church, to my knowlegde), then it is only logical that the same must claim that Purgatory is NOT merely a state of being.

Edited September 1, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[ironmonk]

Purgatory actually was a teaching started by the Jews, the Catholic Church only gave it a name.

Here are a few great resources to assist in your study where you can find every answer to the Catholic Faith:


[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url] (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url]
[url="http://www.Catholic-Pages.com"]http://www.Catholic-Pages.com[/url]
[url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url]



From the Catechism:
[b]III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory[/b]
[b]1030 [/b]
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


[b]1031 [/b]
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608


[b]1032 [/b]
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611


607: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608: St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609: 2 Macc 12:46.
611: St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.





God Bless,
ironmonk

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Sep 1 2004, 11:22 AM'] The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [/quote]
Does that not completely contradict what previous catechisms have taught. It does contradict at least what I quoted from the Baltimore Catechism: "They suffer, we are told, [b]the same pains of sense as the damned[/b]"--not a pain "entirely different from the punishment of the damned."

Again the Summa answers in conjunction with the Baltimore Catechism:

Whether it is the same place where souls are cleansed, and the damned punished?
Objection 1. It would seem that it is not the same place where souls are cleansed and the damned punished. For the punishment of the damned is eternal, according to Mt. 25:46, "These shall go into everlasting punishment [Vulg.: 'fire']." But the fire of Purgatory is temporary, as the Master says (Sent. iv, D, 21). Therefore the former and the latter are not punished together in the same place: and consequently these places must needs be distinct.

Objection 2. The punishment of hell is called by various names, as in Ps. 10:7, "Fire and brimstone, and storms of winds," etc., whereas the punishment of Purgatory is called by one name only, namely fire. Therefore they are not punished with the same fire and in the same place.

Objection 3. Further, Hugh of St. Victor says (De Sacram. ii, 16): "It is probable that they are punished in the very places where they sinned." And Gregory relates (Dial. iv, 40) that Germanus, Bishop of Capua, found Paschasius being cleansed in the baths. Therefore they are not cleansed in the same place as hell, but in this world.

On the contrary, Gregory says [The quotation is from St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 8)]: "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." Therefore the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of hell: and hence they are in the same place.

Further, the holy fathers; before the coming of Christ, were in a more worthy place than that wherein souls are now cleansed after death, since there was no pain of sense there. Yet that place was joined to hell, or the same as hell: otherwise Christ when descending into Limbo would not be said to have descended into hell. Therefore Purgatory is either close to, or the same place as, hell.

I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church.

Some say, however, that according to the common law the place of Purgatory is where man sins. This does not seem probable, since a man may be punished at the same time for sins committed in various places. And others say that according to the common law they are punished above us, because they are between us and God, as regards their state. But this is of no account, for they are not punished for being above us, but for that which is lowest in them, namely sin.

Reply to Objection 1. The fire of Purgatory is eternal in its substance, but temporary in its cleansing effect.

Reply to Objection 2. The punishment of hell is for the purpose of affliction, wherefore it is called by the names of things that are wont to afflict us here. But the chief purpose of the punishment of Purgatory is to cleanse us from the remains of sin; and consequently the pain of fire only is ascribed to Purgatory, because fire cleanses and consumes.

Reply to Objection 3. This argument considers the point of special dispensation and not that of the common law.

(from newadvent.org)

The Summa answers: "thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is [b]the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory[/b]"

It is the EXACT same fire of punishment, not a completely different punishment!

Edited September 1, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[dUSt]

Cool name man.

My favorite author as a kid was a guy named Sterling North. I was going to name my son that, but my wife wouldn't let me.

[Guest Sterling]

Hello everybody.

First of all, thank all of you very much for your replies, i really appreciate you spending your time to answer my questions.

I have not had time to read all of the replies that you have posted yet, but i look forward to reading and replying to all of what you said. However, since i am at school right now (and for another 2 hours ) i cannot really make any lengthy post as i would like to. But as soon as i get some time (probably friday...i have to work tomorrow, and go to church tonight) i look foward to discussing these and other matters more.

Anyway, i should probably get off the computer before my teacher yells at me again, so once more, thank you all very much.

Sterling

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

HartfordWhalers...welcome...you sound very educated.

First of all, on your reply to my post you said...

[quote]Hm.... It seems that the Church has taught quite the contrary. Just as Hell and Heaven are not mere states of being, neither is Purgatory.[/quote]

First, Hell is a State of Being...CCC # 1033 "[b][u]This state [/u]of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell.[/b]"

So Hell is a state of complete and ultimate exclusion of yourself from God and the blessed. This state of "definitive self-exclusion" is what brings us pain, this is the burning fire's.

Now Purgatory...CCC # 1054 "[b]Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified[/b], [u][b]although they are assured of their eternal salvation[/b][/u], undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God."

So is they are assured their eternal Salvation in Heaven, how can they be in Hell, or suffering the fires of Hell while in Purgatory (as you said in you later post, "the same pains of sense as the damned.") Because the pains the 'Damned' are in the "state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God." This is the pain those in Hell suffer, not necessarily those in Purgatory suffer. Now it could be simillar, but it can't be the same.

With Charity,

Andy