Speaking In Tounges

[BullnaChinaShop]

The problem of whether it is the Holy Spirit or a demon causing someone to speak in tounges arises when there is no interpreter of what is being said. If no one knows what someone speaking in tounges is saying they could be praising God but they could also be blasheming him and not even know it.

[Briguy]

Scofizzle, thanks for the post. I like the charity I see on this board so far. Anyway, my steep hill example still works because in that example the sign is only meant for the driver of one car. In this case Tongues are a sign only for unbelieving Isreal. Paul Quotes directly from Isaiah 28 which is speaking directly of judgement of the house of Isreal. The point is that the sign pointed to the judgement and destruction of Jerulsalem which then happened in 70AD. Tongues then faded away after that, just as Paul said when he said they would cease. The greek word meaning "fade away on their own". So, I believe based on that pure Bible logic that Tongues began to fade away on 70AD and were gone by about 100AD when those who had the gift died. Hope that clarifies my position.

Hi All, Try to deal directly with my argument and we will see if it stands. Thanks Much!

In Christ,
Brian

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 2 2004, 01:00 PM'] He also said, though, about those who cast out demons in His Name: "Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, [b]I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity[/b]." St. Matthew 7: 22-23.

By the way, if it's not leading people to the Church, then it's not leading people to God. [/quote]
I can see what you mean, that the people may not be doing it of God. That wording was bad, but you know what I mean. But if it somehow brings people to God, okay. And you're right, it can't be leading people to God if it's not leading them to His Church. Sorry if I implied that I thought otherwise. I'm not very comfortable around people speaking in tongues unless there's an interpreter, because I don't know what's being said.

[Scofizzle]

Mark 16: 15-18

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. 17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(This is from Jesus when he appears to the apostles after the resurection)

In this quote it seems as though any of us who believe, these signs will come. Its almost as if we are expected to do these things. There is no mention here of this being restricted to just Israel. Even when Paul speaks directly of an unbelieving Israel I don't think it is limited to just that.

[Scofizzle]

[b]This is Polar Bear's previous post....not mine.....but since he only linked to it I will post cuz its got good info. I like this little debate we're having very fun.[/b]

From previous threads on the matter:


The Charismatic Renewal is not something new in the Church, which is why it is called a renewal. What is now called the charismatic movement and what are now called the charismatic gifts have always been part of the life of the Church and are especially evident in the lives of exceptionally holy persons, i.e. saints. The current movement is to encourage awareness in the reality of these gifts and a devotion to the Holy Spirit.

Prayer tongues are different from the gift of tongues that requires an interpreter. If someone is going to speak to the group, as with a message for the group, there does need to be an interpreter there or the group is not edified. However, prayer tongues can be used without interpreters. Either way, these are always real languages, not gibberish, that the speaker does not know. There have been cases where someone who knows an obscure language hears someone praying in tongues and recognizes the language. It can also be a language that is no longer used or is known by only a few people.

While many people do maintain that most if not all people should have a prayer tongue, I disagree with them. However, everyone should be open to it. Everyone should be open to whatever the Lord wants to give them and especially to the movement of the Holy Spirit.

It is important that charismatic groups, as well as any other group, remains fully under the spiritual direction of the Church. Any group that contradicts the Church or defies the legitimate authority of Her ministers is no longer following the Holy Spirit.

There are dangers with this, as there are with any movement. However, if the people are properly catechized and guided on the existence and proper use of the "charismatic" gifts, there is a great benefit to be had not only by those participating, but also by the whole Church.

Both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in favor of the current movement. It is inappropriate, then, for any of the faithful to maintain that the movement is outside of or contrary to the Church.

Devotion to the Holy Spirit is devotion to God. We should be no less eager to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit than we are to have one with the Father or the Son. In fact, I would go so far as to say that devotion to the Holy Spirit is required by the faith (something that cannot be said, btw, of Marian devotion). If one has a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit and is open to everything He offers, it seems likely that he will experience a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and receive at least one of the "charismatic" gifts. (That does not mean that it will necessarily be a dramatic event, as often happens within the Charismatic Renewal Movement.) There may be those that God, in His infinite wisdom, chooses not to give any of the "charismatic" gifts. However, I think that the evidence presented by the saints does indicate that the presence of "charismatic" gifts is not outside the norm for a life of holiness.


In a May 30, 1998 audience, the Holy Father said:



QUOTE
The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church's constitution. They contribute although differently to the life, renewal, and sanctification of God's People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church's charismatic dimension that before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclecial movements and new communities.




QUOTE
Today I would like to cry out to all of you gather here in St. Peter's Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docily to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us!




QUOTE
It is essential...that every movement submit to the discernment fo the competent ecclesiastical authority. For this reason no charism can dispense with reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church. The Council wrote in clear words: 'Those who have charge over the Church should judge the genuiness and proper use of these gifts, through their office not indeed to extinquish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thes 5:12; 19-21) (Lumen Gentium, no. 12). This is the necessary guarantee that you are taking the right road.




See also his June 24, 1992 General Audience. [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html[/url]


In their 1997 document "Grace for the New Springtime," the USCCB discussed, and affirmed the Charismatic Renewal. The only quote I already have typed out from the document is regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit:


QUOTE
As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.




Cardinal Ratzinger's statement is in "The Ratzinger Report." It is a passing mention of new ecclesial movements that are to be commended.


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"It is utter folly to think that one can draw souls to God by bitter zeal.." Pope St. Pius X, 1903

Though the Church has affirmed the legitimacy of the charismatic gifts, not all manifestations are authentic. While it is important to be open to the Spirit, it is also important to discern the true origin of these experiences. The Apostle John warns us, “do no believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 Jn 4:1). We must test these gifts to discern whether they are from the person, the devil, or God. The discernment of spirits is often listed as a charismatic gift because the Spirit helps us to recognize something as from God or from another source.

Discerning between authentic and inauthentic manifestations can be difficult, especially for someone not acquainted with the manifestations of charismatic gifts. Several keys can aid in the discernment of spirits. Matthew 12:33 tells us “a tree is known by its fruit.” Looking at the fruit of the message and at the fruit of the gift in the life of the person can be telling. The personal sanctity of the person is not an absolute measure. Just as God used Balaam to bless the Israelites and proclaim them as the Chosen People (Num. 22), sinners and unbelievers can receive charismatic gifts. On the other hand, a holy person may mistake his or her own zealousness and emotional responses for authentic gifts. However, those involved with authentic gifts should be drawn into the heart of the Church. Disunity or disobedience to the Church in the name of the Spirit is a contradiction; such a message is not authentic. The Holy Spirit does not lead people into sin, but rather to the Light.

The desire of the person seeking these gifts should also be consistent with the teachings of the Church. The gifts should not be sought so much as the Giver. Authentic gifts are not forms of divination or fortune-telling, and should not be sought as such.


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"It is utter folly to think that one can draw souls to God by bitter zeal.." Pope St. Pius X, 1903

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Sep 2 2004, 06:49 PM']
In this quote it seems as though any of us who believe, these signs will come. Its almost as if we are expected to do these things. There is no mention here of this being restricted to just Israel. Even when Paul speaks directly of an unbelieving Israel I don't think it is limited to just that. [/quote]
That's how I've always taken it. Except that not all are expected to speak in tongues and such, as Paul says that it is a spiritual gift given to some (1 Cor 12:9-11). But yeah, I agree with you Scofizzle.

[Scofizzle]

well, not that we are all expected to speak in tongues, I should have worded it differently. But we are all called to expect that sort of thing to happen, it shouldn't be the shock that it is when we see it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Sep 2 2004, 03:53 PM'][b]This is Polar Bear's previous post....not mine.....but since he only linked to it I will post cuz its got good info. I like this little debate we're having very fun.[/b]

[. . .]
Both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in favor of the current movement. It is inappropriate, then, for any of the faithful to maintain that the movement is outside of or contrary to the Church.
[. . . ]
[/quote]
A Catholic is free to hold his own opinion on the Charismatic movement, because the statements made by the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger, which refer to the movement, are not binding in conscience nor are they [i]de fide[/i] definitions.

[Briguy]

17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Hi Scofizzle, Hope you are well this fine Friday. The problem with the verses here is that people want to pluck Tongues out and leave the other things. I don't see people speaking in tongues and then drinking a bottle of liquid plumber. And then top there evening off by stopping atr the ER and healing all the people. No, something else is going on here. Perhaps this is meant for a time that is yet to come or perhaps it was meant for the Apostles and some early followers as a way to give authority to the brand new message they were bringing. Either way, to use this verse as it relates to the year 2004 just does not work.

Also, To say there are two types of Tongues, one a prayer type and the other a gift, is not Biblical. We can disect 1 cor. 12-14 and see that Paul never gives any indication that there is two. One often mis-qouted verse is the one that says "one who speaks in tongues edifies himself" People will say that this proves that tongues can build up the speaker. The whole point is then missed. In 1 cor. 12:7 Paul says that all gifts are for the building up of the "body" not individuals. Therefore when Paul spoke about edifying oneself he was saying that in the negative. He was and is saying that is a WRONG use of the gift. It is for building up the body only. The verse is a rebuke along with most of Chapt. 14.

One other thing. Tongues has to be a real language because the greek word in question always refers to real languages. This means that tongues were used like this: a person of another language came into an assembly of believers. Someone who had the gift of tongues would share a short message with the person so they could get edified. Then a person with the gift of interpretation would interpret that message so the rest of the assembly would be edified. That way all involved were edified as required when a spirtual gift is used. Tongues are always in full control of the speaker, as gifts of preaching and teaching are today. I mean that if you really had the gift of tongues you could at any time have a conversation with a person who spoke a different language. Since no one today can do that, the gift is gone. Hows that for good old logic?

In Christ who saves,
Brian

Edited September 3, 2004 by Briguy

[MichaelFilo]

You would be suggesting the gift of tongues is actually a gift of learning a new language, this is not the case. I happen to agree with most of what else you said. However, speaking in tongues was and still could be used to talk to people of a different language (remember in the bible, how they went aren't these people Jews, but they speak a,b,c,d, e ). It could be used to preach to those who do not understand you, but I don't imagine you learn the language, because then it isn't the gift of speaking in tongues, but instead, the gift of learning a new tongue.

God bless,

Mikey

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Sep 3 2004, 01:31 AM'] well, not that we are all expected to speak in tongues, I should have worded it differently. But we are all called to expect that sort of thing to happen, it shouldn't be the shock that it is when we see it. [/quote]
I figured that's what you were talking about.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Sep 3 2004, 08:54 AM'] The problem with the verses here is that people want to pluck Tongues out and leave the other things. I don't see people speaking in tongues and then drinking a bottle of liquid plumber. And then top there evening off by stopping atr the ER and healing all the people. [/quote]
Question for clarification: are you saying that people aren't miraculously healed anymore or something else? I just want some clarification. Personally, I know of occasions where God has acted through another person to heal someone. In fact, it's my grandfather who was healed (he was techinically dead, but some faithful people came in and prayed over him, laying hands on him, and God answered). But I digress from the topic.

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Sep 3 2004, 07:54 AM'] Tongues are always in full control of the speaker, as gifts of preaching and teaching are today. I mean that if you really had the gift of tongues you could at any time have a conversation with a person who spoke a different language. Since no one today can do that, the gift is gone. Hows that for good old logic?

[/quote]
[QUOTE]

The speaker does not control the "tongues". The Holy Spirit determines what happens to whom and when.

Acts 2
And they were all (3) filled with the Holy Spirit and began to (4) speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, (5) devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And when (6) this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
7 (7) They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking (8) Galileans?
8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?

The Apostels had no control of themselves speaking in tongues. It was the Holy Spirit moving within them.

You are correct when you say that tongues muct build up the community, but who are we to determine how and why thats happens. Also Tongues must be spoken in a language, True. But once again what languages are exceptable? What if someone speaks in som edialect from the center of africa that seems to be nothing more than mumbling? The point is..... We cannot determine these things. The Church has made her stance on the issue and thats all we can go on. Unfortunately and fortunately the Holy Spirit is a mystery to us. It CAN'T be explained. The fullness of the Truth will only be revieled to us in Heaven, and when we get there (hopefully) we can talk about it then.

[frozencell]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Sep 1 2004, 03:27 PM'] The Bible diminishes the importance of speaking in tongues compared to the other gifts of the Spirit (love, faith, hope). It also speaks of how you should be silent unless the people around you can actually understand what you're saying. See 1 Corinthians 14.

"Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up. Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction? Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? [b]Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.[/b]" [/quote]
I come from a long Protestant background, and I have had several experiences with "speaking in tongues". The general belief about these things (for those denoms. that believe in that sort of thing) was that you shouldn't speak in tongues unless there is a interpreter for everyone to hear. Definitely, someone speaking in Swahili in LA is going to be a lot of use for the congregation. You should only speak in tongues in front of people for them to listen to you if you are truly moved by the Holy Spirit to do such a thing. Then, God will provide an interpreter.

But I believe prayer is an entirely different matter. When you pray for someone you are not uttering the words for them to benifit by hearing them. You say the words as offering them to God. If the Holy Spirit comes on you in such a way as to cause you to speak in tongues then of course there isn't going to be an interpreter. There isn't any use for one. God knows every language and can understand anything you are saying, even if you do not. It's a gift of the Holy Spirit, and God will know if you are faking it. After all, it's a gift that is meant to bring you closer to God, not to be gawked at by others to make you look super-spiritual.

[Briguy]

You all seem to be close to what I see as the truth concerning tongues but yet missing a vital point or two. "Gifts" are just what the word says. Something given in full from the giver to the givee. If I gave you a car but not the keys it would be a useless gift. If I give you the car and the keys but told you that you can only drive the car when I say that would be a poor gift as well. No, a gift is given with the expectation that the receiver will use the gift at his will. Spiritual gifts are that same way! Imagine that a special gift given expressly from God to us and we have full control over what he has given us. Now He has expectations but that is another topic. Tongues were in full control of the user. If a person of another language came into a gathering a tongue speaker could just simply speak their language. No study, no training, no anything, it was simply a supernatural ability. The tongue speaker would preach a short message to the person and a gifted interpreter, who could interpret supernaturally would translate the message to the rest of the group, this would then edify ALL at the assembly which 1 Cor. 12:7 says must happen when a gift is exercised. As I said before ALL GIFTS are in our control, well I mean the gift/s we have are in our control. Helps, and governments(administrations) are no different. When the Holy Spirit gives us our gift/s we possess them and use them to further the kingdom by edifying the body. Hope that cleared up my position some. The day of Pentecost was the first giving of the gift of tongues and yes the Apostles were in control because they went out and preached to all the people of different languages that had gathered in that area. I'll try to add more later, thanks for reading.

In christ,
Brian