Catholic Faction?

[jasJis]

Keep it in context.[quote]51. Holiness begins from Christ; and Christ is its cause. For no act conducive to salvation can be performed unless it proceeds from Him as from its supernatural source. "Without me," He says, "you can do nothing."[89] If we grieve and do penance for our sins, if, with filial fear and hope, we turn again to God, it is because He is leading us. Grace and glory flow from His inexhaustible fullness. Our Savior is continually pouring out His gifts of counsel, fortitude, fear and piety, especially on the leading members of His Body, so that the whole Body may grow ever more and more in holiness and in integrity of life. When the Sacraments of the Church are administered by external rite, it is He who produces their effect in souls.[90] He nourishes the redeemed with His own flesh and blood and thus calms the turbulent passions of the soul; He gives increase of grace and prepares future glory for souls and bodies. All these treasures of His divine goodness He is said to bestow on the members of His Mystical Body, not merely because He, as the Eucharistic Victim on earth and the glorified Victim in heaven, through His wounds and His prayers pleads our cause before the Eternal Father, but because He selects, He determines, He distributes every single grace to every single person "according to the measure of the giving of Christ."[91] Hence it follows that from our Divine Redeemer as from a fountainhead "the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity."[92]


52. These truths which We have expounded, Venerable Brethren, briefly and succinctly tracing the manner in which Christ our Lord wills that His abundant graces should flow from His fullness into the Church, in order that she should resemble Him as closely as possible, help not a little to explain the third reason why the social Body of the Church should be honored by the name of Christ--namely, that our Savior Himself sustains in a divine manner the society which He founded.


53. As Bellarmine notes with acumen and accuracy,[93] this appellation of the Body of Christ is not to be explained solely by the fact that Christ must be called the Head of His Mystical Body, but also by the fact that He so sustains the Church, and so in a certain sense lives in the Church, that she is, as it were, another Christ. The Doctor of the Gentiles, in his letter to the Corinthians, affirms this when, without further qualification, he calls the Church "Christ,"[94] following no doubt the example of his Master who called out to him from on high when he was attacking the Church: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"[95] Indeed, if we are to believe Gregory of Nyssa, the Church is often called simply "Christ" by the Apostle;[96] and you are familiar, Venerable Brethren, with that phrase of Augustine: "Christ preaches Christ."[97]


54. Nevertheless this most noble title of the Church must not be so understood as if that ineffable bond by which the Son of God assumed a definite human nature belongs to the universal Church; but it consists in this, that our Savior shares prerogatives peculiarly His own with the Church in such a way that she may portray, in her whole life, both exterior and interior, a most faithful image of Christ. For in virtue of the juridical mission by which our Divine Redeemer sent His Apostles into the world, as He had been sent by the Father,[98] it is He who through the Church baptizes, teaches, rules, looses, binds, offers, sacrifices.


55. But in virtue of that higher, interior, and wholly sublime communication, with which We dealt when We described the manner in which the Head influences the members, Christ our Lord wills the Church to live His own supernatural life, and by His divine power permeates His whole Body and nourishes and sustains each of the members according to the place which they occupy in the Body, in the same way as the vine nourishes and makes fruitful the branches which are joined to it.[99]


56. If we examine closely this divine principle of life and power given by Christ, in so far as it constitutes the very source of every gift and created grace, we easily perceive that it is nothing else than the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, and who is called in a special way the "Spirit of Christ" or the "Spirit of the Son."[100] For it was by this Breath of grace and truth that the Son of God anointed His soul in the immaculate womb of the Blessed Virgin; this Spirit delights to dwell in the beloved soul of our Redeemer as in His most cherished shrine; this Spirit Christ merited for us on the Cross by shedding His own blood; this Spirit He bestowed on the Church for the remission of sins, when He breathed on the Apostles;[101] and while Christ alone received this Spirit without measure,[102] to the members of the Mystical Body He is imparted only according to the measure of the giving of Christ from Christ's own fullness.[103] But after Christ's glorification on the Cross, His Spirit is communicated to the Church in an abundant outpouring, so that she, and her individual members, may become daily more and more like to our Savior. It is the Spirit of Christ that has made us adopted sons of God[104] in order that one day "we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face may be transformed into the same image from glory to glory."[105]


57. To this Spirit of Christ, also, as to an invisible principle is to be ascribed the fact that all the parts of the Body are joined one with the other and with their exalted Head; for He is entire in the Head, entire in the Body, and entire in each of the members. To the members He is present and assists them in proportion to their various duties and offices, and the greater or less degree of spiritual health which they enjoy. It is He who through His heavenly grace is the principle of every supernatural act in all parts of the Body. It is He who while He is personally present and divinely active in all the members, nevertheless in the inferior members acts also through the ministry of the higher members. Finally, while by His grace He provides for the continual growth of the Church, He yet refuses to dwell through sanctifying grace in those members that are wholly severed from the Body. This presence and activity of the Spirit of Jesus Christ is tersely and vigorously described by Our predecessor of immortal memory Leo XIII in his Encyclical Letter Divinum Illud in these words: "Let it suffice to say that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, so is the Holy Spirit her soul."[106]


58. If that vital principle, by which the whole community of Christians is sustained by its Founder, be considered not now in itself, but in the created effects which proceed from it, it consists in those heavenly gifts which our Redeemer, together with His Spirit, bestows on the Church, and which He and His Spirit, from whom come supernatural light and holiness, make operative in the Church. The Church, then, no less than each of her holy members can make this great saying of the Apostle her own: "And I live, now not l; but Christ liveth in me."[107]


59. What We have said concerning the "mystical Head"[108] would indeed be incomplete if We were not at least briefly to touch on this saying of the same Apostle: "Christ is the Head of the Church: he is the Savior of his Body."[109] For in these words we have the final reason why the Body of the Church is given the name of Christ, namely, that Christ is the Divine Savior of this Body. The Samaritans were right in proclaiming Him "Savior of the world";[110] for indeed He most certainly is to be called the "Savior of all men," even though we must add with Paul: "especially of the faithful,[111] since, before all others, He has purchased with His Blood His members who constitute the Church.[112] But as We have already treated this subject fully and clearly when speaking of the birth of the Church on the Cross, of Christ as the source of life and the principle of sanctity, and of Christ as the support of His Mystical Body, there is no reason why We should explain it further; but rather let us all, while giving perpetual thanks to God, meditate on it with a humble and attentive mind. For that which our Lord began when hanging on the Cross, He continues unceasingly amid the joys of heaven: "Our Head" says St. Augustine "intercedes for us: some members He is receiving, others He is chastising, others cleansing, others consoling, others creating, others calling, others recalling, others correcting, others renewing."[113] But it is for us to cooperate with Christ in this work of salvation, "from one and through one saved and saviours."[114]
[/quote]
Anybody the Church terms as Christian, is a member of the Mystical Body and is subject to the Roman Pontiff because the Source of Grace is not divided against itself but is it's root and all Christians are attached like a vine. You have to actively and consciencely severe yourself from the Body, just as you have to actively and consiencely severe yourself from God via a Mortal Sin. One cannot unconsciously commit a Mortal Sin, one unconsciously commits a Grave Sin. Big difference. That is why you are wrong and where you misinterpret. We are all called to Grace and must respond positively. Do not undersestimate the power and will of God when we see other Christianss respond to Grace. Do not underestimate the consequences of our willing rejection of Grace which includes denying God's grace working in others. That is the point of the Story of the Samaritan. At the time they were considered heretical schismatics, but they still were being called by Grace and expected to respond to Grace just as the Jews were.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 13 2004, 02:32 PM'] Keep it in context.
Anybody the Church terms as Christian, is a member of the Mystical Body and is subject to the Roman Pontiff because the Source of Grace is not divided against itself but is it's root and all Christians are attached like a vine. You have to actively and consciencely severe yourself from the Body, just as you have to actively and consiencely severe yourself from God via a Mortal Sin. One cannot unconsciously commit a Mortal Sin, one unconsciously commits a Grave Sin. Big difference. That is why you are wrong and where you misinterpret. We are all called to Grace and must respond positively. Do not undersestimate the power and will of God when we see other Christianss respond to Grace. Do not underestimate the consequences of our willing rejection of Grace which includes denying God's grace working in others. That is the point of the Story of the Samaritan. At the time they were considered heretical schismatics, but they still were being called by Grace and expected to respond to Grace just as the Jews were. [/quote]
Christian = CATHOLIC, not protestant. Maybe that is what is commonly used today, but that was NOT what was used in his time, so if you are saying that he was saying whoever the Church calls Christian is a part of the Church, then you say that protestants are not, since they were NOT called Christians by the Church then (nor are they now!)

[Apotheoun]

"As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ," and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. [i][b]For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer[/b], they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church[/i]. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. [i]Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home[/i]." [Pope Pius XII, [u]Mystici Corporis[/u], no. 103]

[jasJis]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Sep 13 2004, 03:21 PM'] We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. [i][b]For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer[/b], they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church[/i]. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. [Pope Pius XII, [u]Mystici Corporis[/u], no. 103] [/quote]
Note that the Pope is saying [b]"they CANNOT BE SURE of their salvation"[/b]. He is not saying they are doomed. God's Grace is not divided, so by Baptism, they have some Grace. Failing to respond to Grace is possible loss of Salvation.

Also Hartford, it's wrong to say Christian = Catholic, you are denying the Church's understanding of the Graces of Baptism. The Church DOESN"T rebaptize.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Sep 13 2004, 03:21 PM'] "As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ," and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. [i][b]For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer[/b], they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church[/i]. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. [i]Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home[/i]." [Pope Pius XII, [u]Mystici Corporis[/u], no. 103] [/quote]
Exactly... we are waiting for them to come home, since if they don't their "partial unity" is in vain. "[i]seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation[/i]."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 13 2004, 02:27 PM'] Note that the Pope is saying [b]"they CANNOT BE SURE of their salvation"[/b]. He is not saying they are doomed. God's Grace is not divided, so by Baptism, they have some Grace. Failing to respond to Grace is possible loss of Salvation. [/quote]
Correct.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 13 2004, 01:57 PM'] This seems pretty ridiculous to me: "All the EENS texts"

1) You are self-interpreting EVERY text ever written, be it by the Church, the Fathers, etc., which is simply absurd...

2) You have not read every text, so even if you were to misinterpret all the ones youve read, that still would leave all the ones you haven't to possiblymean something else, which you could not know without reading them.

3) It is ridiculous to make a blanket statement like that, especially when that idea of "general" Church membership, partial unity, whatever the latest term for false ecumenism is, was never stated in ANY of the times the Church defined this ex Cathedra... [/quote]
1. No the Church is. I gave the Magisterium's interpretation. Your self-interpretation goes against the Magisterium's.
2. I don't know of any that I haven't read. I have read tons of Feeneyite quotations from the Fathers, councils, etc. (if you would read my article [b][u]entirely[/u][/b], you would see that I address these). I was even a regular at IHSV.org until I stumbled on the Truth, which is not Feeneyism.
3. It was a reference to the two types of EENS texts, strict and broad. I don't see why this is ridiculous. Is there a third classification? Don't worry, it had nothing to do with "false ecumenism". And at what point did I embrace the false "general church" idea?

[dairygirl4u2c]

I really don't see how that excerpt from jasjis is relevant. It was written in the 1940's. Again, as far as my argument is concerned anyway, we need context for those controversial texts.

I haven't seen proof of any french controversy. I can only give it the benefit of the doubt for so long.

Edited September 16, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[megamattman1]

Here it is. Go down to where it talks about france. This covers Boniface anyway.
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/debate9.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/debate9.htm[/url]

[megamattman1]

Note the big gap between 1600 and 1800. Not sure what to make of it at this point.

These are mostly from that link. But I added some he left out in italics. I s'pose we're gonna need context for just those more questionable early ones?


POPES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[quote]
POPE INNOCENT III (1198 - 1216 AD)     [i]Fourth Lateran Council finished 1215 [/i]
"There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved."


[i]Aquinas life: 1225 - 1274 Summa Theologica, 1266-1273 Aquinas's teachings fit in right here somwhere. His teachings then are very important. The teachings used by the dude might work, but they probably need elaborated on to prove a point. And if the point had been made then these next guys need put into historical context.[/i]

[i]BonifaceVIII  1302
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam published 1302 [/i]

POPE BONIFACE VIII (1294 - 1303 AD)
"We are compelled to believe and to hold...that there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is neither salvation nor remission of sins."

[i]Eugene IV  1441
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church" Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino published[/i]

POPE ST. PIUS V (1566 - 1572 AD)
"He who reigns on high, to whom is given all power in heaven and on earth, has entrusted His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, to one person on earth alone, namely, to Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and to Peter's successor, the Roman Pontiff, to be governed by him with the fullness of power."

POPE LEO XII (1823 - 1829 AD)
"If any man be outside the Church, he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for a Father since he has not the Church for a Mother."

POPE GREGORY XVI (1831 - 1846 AD)
"Preach the true Catholic faith; he who does not keep it whole and without error will undoubtedly be lost....Encourage union with the Catholic Church, for he who is separated from her will not have life."

POPE PIUS IX (1846 - 1878 AD)
"By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord."

"The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter...Outside her fold is to be found neither the true faith nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one has not the Church for a Mother."

POPE LEO XIII (1878 - 1903 AD)
"All who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort....Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect and spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible head the Roman Pontiff.... By God's commandment, salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."

POPE ST. PIUS X (1903 - 1914 AD)
"Where is the road which leads us to Jesus Christ? It is before our eyes: the Church. It is our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, the absolute necessity we are under to have recourse to this Church in order to work out our eternal salvation."

POPE BENEDICT XV (1914 - 1922 AD)
"In Holy Mother Church lies all hope of eternal salvation.... If anyone is outside of the ark of Noah, he will perish in the overwhelming flood."

POPE PIUS XII (1939 - 1958 AD)
"If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ -- which is the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church -- we shall find no expression more noble, more sublime or more divine than the phrase which calls it 'the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ' ....

"The Church has received in totality all the means of salvation left by the Redeemer...Christ has entrusted His Church with all truth and all grace."

POPE JOHN XXIII (1958 - 1963 AD)
"It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ; it is impossible to be united to Christ except in and through the Church which is His Mystical Body."

POPE PAUL VI (1963 - 1978 AD)
"We believe that 'the Church is necessary for salvation. For, Christ, who is the sole Mediator and the one way to salvation, makes Himself present for us in His Body which is the Church' [Vatican II LG 14]. But the divine design of salvation embraces all human beings; and those 'who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church but seek God with a sincere heart, and under the influence of grace endeavour to do His will as recognised through the prompting of their conscience,' they too in a manner known only to God 'can obtain eternal salvation' [LG 16]."

POPE JOHN PAUL II (1978 - present)
"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from this genuine and single source it reaches the whole world....We have to be conscious of and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, contained in the phrase consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.' From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined, in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ."

"It is a revealed truth that there is salvation only and exclusively in Christ. The Church, inasmuch as it is the Body of Christ, is simply an instrument of this salvation...People are saved through the Church, they are saved in the Church, but they always are saved by the grace of Christ....This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement 'Outside the Church there is no salvation.'"[/quote]

Edited September 16, 2004 by megamattman1

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Sep 16 2004, 06:33 PM'] I really don't see how that excerpt from jasjis is relevant. It was written in the 1940's. Again, as far as my argument is concerned anyway, we need context for those controversial texts.

I haven't seen proof of any french controversy. I can only give it the benefit of the doubt for so long. [/quote]
It is relevant because it is a Roman pontiff explaining the Church's position on a doctrine.

[dairygirl4u2c]

It is relevent to the teaching in a general sense. But it is not relevent to my point.

okay, you guys tell me what my point is.

[megamattman1]

Your point of this thread is that the controversial popes are shown to be using the stringent meaning because of so many factions (such as hardford) who do not believe in the teachings of the last two hundred years. This is circumstantial evidence which I'm sure you'd agree.

This evidence is made by your point that is that the controversial quotes and Popes era may have not adhered to what was taught before them and after them. (though you say before them was just mixed beliefs anyway) You say everyone has shown textual proof that they may have not contradicted, but have not shown "intentual" proof.

But then I just showed Boniface's answer to your question, don't know about the others yet though.

Edited September 17, 2004 by megamattman1

[dairygirl4u2c]

okay someone other than mega..

And put it in your own words! (so that I know that you understand)

[DominaNostra]

Dairygirl, hi. There are many people who do not believe what the Church teaches concerning the doctrine Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. The Church has stated that those outside the Church cannot be saved (no one denies this, they simply have their own version of "Those who are not members of the Church"). The only question is where the Church has defined "Those outside the Church." The Catechism of the Council of Trent (promulgated by an Ecumenical Council, the Council of Trent) is, according to Catholic teaching, an infallible document. This document defines "Those who are not members of the Church." Those who do not belong to the Church are damned, according to Catholic teaching. In any event, Article IX on the Creed from the Catechism of the Council of Trent states the following:

[i]Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church[/i]
Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.


Here, the Church states explicitly that those outside the Church are the following: infidels (who never knew the Church), heretics and schismatics (who knew the Church and rejected Her), and excommunicated persons (who for some reason deserved to be cut off from the Church). All these will perish according to Church teaching, for we know that those outside the Church cannot have salvation. Regardless of the many theories of who is and is not in the Church, it has already been decided in the Catechism of the Council of Trent. Please, do not heed their mock humility, and remember the words of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem. I thought this might help you to understand what the Church actually teaches.