Catholic Faction?

[jasJis]

Extremists of all sorts take their "bit" out of context with the larger whole so they can justify their perspective. One can't take the statements from Trent without the rest of the statements of the Magesterium. Only when taken as a whole do we begin to understand the Fullness of the Catholic Church.

[HartfordWhalers]

"Session Six, Chapter Four:
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.



Session Seven, On the Sacraments in General, Canon IV:

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema."

It doesn't say: BY THE DESIRE THEREOF we ARE baptized. It says we aren't without desire thereof. That, it would seem, applies to adults, since infants don't desire Baptism.

If that means you don't need to be baptized, then the Canons for Baptism contradict it when they say that you need to be baptized to be saved.

[Aloysius]

no, it says OR the desire thereof, not AND the desire thereof.

it does not contradict the canons. it contradicts Fr. Feeney's interpretation of them, but it does not contradict them actually.

Trent's canons make it clear to say that sacramental baptism is necessary, that it is not merely a symbol. Trent also makes allowance for baptism of desire under extreme circumstances.

Pope St. Pius X explains this in his catechism in artical 9 of the creed :
[quote]29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation
[/quote]

[jasJis]

Hartford and dairy,
I suggest you both read (in it's ENTIRETY) Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/documents/PiusXII/mystici.html"]On the Mystical Body of Christ[/url] The following is an excerpt, near the conclusion. You MUST read it in it's entirety to comprehend it in the proper context. [quote]103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ,"[195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home.


104. Though We desire this unceasing prayer to rise to God from the whole Mystical Body in common, that all the straying sheep may hasten to enter the one fold of Jesus Christ, yet We recognize that this must be done of their own free will; for no one believes unless he wills to believe.[198] Hence they are most certainly not genuine Christians[199] who against their belief are forced to go into a church, to approach the altar and to receive the Sacraments; for the "faith without which it is impossible to please God"[200] is an entirely free "submission of intellect and will."[201] Therefore whenever it happens, despite the constant teaching of this Apostolic See,[202] that anyone is compelled to embrace the Catholic faith against his will, Our sense of duty demands that We condemn the act. For men must be effectively drawn to the truth by the Father of light through the Spirit of His beloved Son, because, endowed as they are with free will, they can misuse their freedom under the impulse of mental agitation and base desires. Unfortunately many are still wandering far from Catholic truth, being unwilling to follow the inspirations of divine grace, because neither they[203] nor the faithful pray to God with sufficient fervor for this intention. Again and again we beg all who ardently love the Church to follow the example of the Divine Redeemer and to give themselves constantly to such prayer.
[/quote]

[HartfordWhalers]

"29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation "

ON THE WAY OF SALVATION insofar as he is responding to what God wants of him and God can lead him to the Church by both supernatural and natural means. The Pope never said he could be saved without being Catholic. Also, even if he had, that is not an infallible declaration as the Council of Trent is.

Say A=desire of Baptism and B=Baptism

Trent says unless you have A or B you cannot be saved.

Trent DOES NOT say: If you have A you WILL be saved.

It says unless you have A (or B) you cannot be saved.

You are taking a negative and making it an affirmative. That is changing what the Council means.

As far as misinterpreting a Canon, it is pretty clear that what you're doing (changing what it actually says from neg. to aff. is MISINTERPRETING, not taking a Canon for Baptism for what it means)

[Aloysius]

unless you have A or B you cannot be saved.

that means if you have A, you can be saved (you won't necessarily, but you CAN)
that means if you have B, you can be saved (you won't necessarily, but you CAN)

it is not a misinterpretation, but an interpretation in the light of what the ECFs have said, an interpretation in the light of the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII and Vatican II and the constant magisterium of the Catholic Church. tell me, why do you hold so steadfast to this misrepresentation of Catholic Teaching even when the Catholic Church herself says God can use baptism of desire and/or blood to save a man?

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 6 2004, 09:58 PM'] unless you have A or B you cannot be saved.

that means if you have A, you can be saved (you won't necessarily, but you CAN)
that means if you have B, you can be saved (you won't necessarily, but you CAN)

it is not a misinterpretation, but an interpretation in the light of what the ECFs have said, an interpretation in the light of the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII and Vatican II and the constant magisterium of the Catholic Church. tell me, why do you hold so steadfast to this misrepresentation of Catholic Teaching even when the Catholic Church herself says God can use baptism of desire and/or blood to save a man? [/quote]
"unless you have A or B you cannot be saved.

that means if you have A, you can be saved (you won't necessarily, but you CAN)
that means if you have B, you can be saved (you won't necessarily, but you CAN)"

That's not what the Council says. That is how you interpret it.

Moreover, where is Baptism of Blood in this? It says desire thereof (not "implicit" either). How can you have an implicit desire? The verb desire is an action: "To express a wish for; request." TO EXPRESS A WISH. How is it that you express a wish to be baptized, you request to be baptized, yet you don't even know you want to be? If anything is absurd, that is absurd.

Councils are read in light of what has preceded them, not the other way around. You don't read Trent in light of Vat II. You read Vat II in light of Trent, which itself is read in light of FLORENCE, which is read in light of Lateran IV, etc. The Church builds upon itself. If you don't read one in light of those preceding, then you end up leaving out a lot of what the Church has taught, most especially in this case Florence.

[Aloysius]

see, i'm not looking soley at trent. i'm looking at traditional Catholic Teaching by people like St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope St. Pius X. i did not intend to say that Trent should be read in light of Vatican II, but rather that Trent should be read in light of its intention. it gives allowance for desire of baptism, and orthodox teachers of the Catholic Faith taught something that did nto contradict that but expanded upon that saying that desire of baptism does not have to be explicit, but an implicit desire of the soul. this is why in midieval times it was a common Christian practice to consider people like Plato saints, because they did not have a chance to know Christ but it was believed that had they the chance they would have, thus God would have used their implicit desire for baptism to save them. now, we don't know the fate of the souls of the ancient greek philosophers, but it has always been considered possible by Christians that they could have been saved.

Trent leaves open the fact that with the desire of baptism one can be saved.

enter: developement of doctrine. does not contradict previous doctrine, but expands upon it. expanding upon the idea of desire for baptism.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 6 2004, 10:52 PM'] see, i'm not looking soley at trent. i'm looking at traditional Catholic Teaching by people like St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope St. Pius X. i did not intend to say that Trent should be read in light of Vatican II, but rather that Trent should be read in light of its intention. it gives allowance for desire of baptism, and orthodox teachers of the Catholic Faith taught something that did nto contradict that but expanded upon that saying that desire of baptism does not have to be explicit, but an implicit desire of the soul. this is why in midieval times it was a common Christian practice to consider people like Plato saints, because they did not have a chance to know Christ but it was believed that had they the chance they would have, thus God would have used their implicit desire for baptism to save them. now, we don't know the fate of the souls of the ancient greek philosophers, but it has always been considered possible by Christians that they could have been saved.

Trent leaves open the fact that with the desire of baptism one can be saved.

enter: developement of doctrine. does not contradict previous doctrine, but expands upon it. expanding upon the idea of desire for baptism. [/quote]
Ancient philosophers lived before the institution of Baptism. They didn't have desire to be baptized because it was not even instituted... the same is true of everyone before Christ. The absolute necessity of Baptism began at Pentecost.

How is it not contradicting previous teaching when previous teaching said Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary and now it is: Baptism is not necessary because desire of Baptism is just as good.

[jasJis]

Hartford,
You obviously did not read my post, nor the encyclical. If you read that, you gain the greater perspective of what is the Church, and what is the Body of Christ. All Christianity, whether they want to admit it or not, are subject to the Catholic Church and the Vicar of Christ on earth. It doesn't matter if they are ignorant of the state of subjection. Now if they actively work against this with the understanding they may be working against Christ's will, they could very well lose their Salvation. Also, you would be enlightened with the normative ways we understand God's will. But God's will is His own, and He is not trapped by our understanding and will accomplish His will. This is not saying the ignorance is Salvific, it is saying that by rejecting what graces are offered each of us in our station in life, is how Salvation is lost. That has always been clear and defined by the Magesterium.

And another thing. We are baptised by the Holy Spirit. Water is the normal means that God uses to communcate the Baptizing of the Spirit to us, but God Baptizes with the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. (Mary, for instance.)

Edited September 7, 2004 by jasJis

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 7 2004, 09:47 AM'] And another thing. We are baptised by the Holy Spirit. Water is the normal means that God uses to communcate the Baptizing of the Spirit to us, but God Baptizes with the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. (Mary, for instance.) [/quote]
What you are saying here seems to discount the necessity for Baptism of water, which the Church has constantly taught. Are you saying that Our Lady was baptized other than by water? She didn't need to be baptized because she did not have Original Sin. The necessity of Baptism began at Pentecost. Anyone before that did not need to be baptized to be saved, but everyone after Pentecost MUST be baptized to be saved.

[jasJis]

[quote]V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.59

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. [/quote]
Hartford,
This is why you have the "I do not rep the Church" label. You are going directly against the Catechism which was promulgated, reviewed, and approved by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church. You are giving a simplistic answer to a complex question, thusly, you are misleading others and confusing them. If one is graced with the opportunity for Baptism, yes, they MUST not reject it. If one has not been graced with the opportunity for Baptistms, they have still always been graced to know right from wrong and must choose to do what's Good. We can do no Good without honoring God who is all Good.

[HartfordWhalers]

[color=red][Edited by dUSt: Criticism of the current magisterium][/color]

[HartfordWhalers]

"The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon"

St. Thomas Aquinas says that a Deacon is not an ordinary minister of Baptism in the Summa.

[HartfordWhalers]

[color=red][Edited by dUSt: See you in 3 days. Go here and read before coming back: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules[/url]][/color]