Fundamentalist Catholics

[Aloysius]

also, i take that position as a direct attack upon my soul and upon the souls of my generation, as well as upon their future families. you are working towards the destruction of souls, and it would be better for you to have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown into the ocean than for you to succeed in your mission to sexually liberate the Church.

"But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea." [i]Words of Our Lord Jesus Christ from The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter XVIII, Verse VI[/i]

Unless you repent and come into communion with the Church, then according to Church Teaching you should not be presenting yourself for Most Holy Communion and you commit sacrilidge by doing so.


This was not a nice post. I am sorry, however, but I am practicing one of the seven spiritual works of mercy known as ADMONISH THE SINNER.

May God have mercy on your soul.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 03:51 PM'] An interesting debate everyone. I probably should come clean and inform you all that I work for the RC Church and have done for a number of years. The Hierarchy of the church with the exception of Ratzinger (a liberal turned conservative) and a handful of others are seeking change in so many areas of doctrine. This will happen at some point in the future, possibly in our life time, I guarantee that to you all. I really do see your views and take them on board and I take offense at those who labeled me narrow minded – it’s not nice. Whether or not you agree with what I have to say is irrelevant as there is room for us all in the Church, there really is. I respect the fact that so many of you follow all of the orders from Rome alas I cannot do that. God gave me a mind and I will use that to do what I feel is right.

You would all be very surprised if you found out just how many of the clergy from Priests all the way up to Bishops and even some Cardinals are seeking change especially in the area of sexual morality. The problem so many Catholics are experiencing now is an instinctive feeling that the Church is getting it wrong. If any of you are younger users you may be fortunate enough to be in a parish or group that is flourishing but this is not the case in most parishes either in the US or Europe. I have lived and worked for the church in three continents. The truth is that many parishes are dying out, parishioners are getting older, those entering the priesthood are fewer and sometimes we have to look at the facts – What will the Church have left to hand down if they won’t come to the table and talk? It is far too easy to brand someone a dissenter or a heretic and banish them to hell and far more difficult to listen to the genuine concerns of the majority of the RC population. By loose estimates for example 70% of the Catholic population have used or do use contraception.

People are not listening to the church and quoting church documents will not change their minds either. So the choice is this: either banish every dissenter from the church and be left with a few or come to the table, listen to the concerns of Catholics worldwide and move forward

[/quote]
Many of us here work for the Catholic Church as well.
We don't consider you narrow-minded, hopeflly you are simply misinformed about what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

The Church is not full of liberals or conservatives [political terms not applicable to the house of God], one is simply faithful to the teachings of the Church or one is not.

It does have a lot to do with using one's mind, and we freely choose to follow the teachings of Christ found in his Church after thorough study and reflection.
Blindness is found in those people who follow the whims of the crowd, popular culture, and their hormones. Doing the will of God does not mean being run by feelings, or a faulty or misinformed conscience. Consciences are formed within Church teachings, not in spite of Church teachings.

Many people here are young adult converts, and have come thru many difficulties to become Catholic. The many teenagers here are on fire for the Church, the Mass, the Pope, and say rosaries at the drop of a hat.

You are also wrong about the number of vocations.

70% of the Catholic population using the pill simply means 70% of Catholics have been lied to by your aging population of dissenting priests and bishops you mentioned. We have a lot of work cut out for us here at PHATMASS.


Nobody here has mentioned banishing people to hell except you.

The choice is not banish dissenters but to educate them. Then they can make a fully informed choice to stay or leave. If one cannot assent to the teachings of the Church, I am sure there is some little feel-good group out there to make dissenters happy. Assent does not mean you don't struggle, it simply means you have the obedience of faith mentioned by Saint Paul. It means you have the guts to try to be a faithful Catholic.
Yes, it's hard; yes, we fall. But we are not asked to be merely good people, but a holy people.

We are called to conform ourselves to the church founded by Christ, not conform the church to some pop fad culture of the moment.

God is not interested in quantity but quality.

[Dave]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 11:01 AM'] Why is is that Fundamentalist and Extremist Catholic groups feel the need to wage hate campaigns in this election (and hate is putting it mildly) They hate homosexuals they hate people who support the right of a woman to have an abortion, they seem to hate everyone who doesn't agree with their version of 'truth'. It is a case of if you are not with me then you will likely burn in hell. Why are they so hung up on sex? Sex is an amazing gift from God. How anyone can still listen 100% to the moral hyperbole of this institution ESPECIALLY on issues of sexual morality with a straight face is beyond me!!! I have had sex before marriage but have never had sex with a 9 year old boy and I am supposed to tow the party line?  As far as I and many other catholics are concerned, we don't buy it anymore.[/quote]

Now that is EXTREMELY judgmental, claiming that orthodox Catholics hate others. We don't condemn people to hell, but there's nothing wrong with warning people that they COULD go to hell if they persist in doing things that are mortally sinful.

As for being hung up on sex, that's just not true. Less that 5 percent of our Holy Father's writings have addressed sexual matters!

This may sound uncharitable, and I apologize for that, but it's actually dissenting Catholics who are hung up on sex. A casual perusal of their literature reveals that anywhere from one-fourth to one-half of their writings deal with sex-related topics such as contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and priestly celibacy. The reason for this is that, in order to escape their burden of guilt, dissenters must continually labor to reassure each other that they're just as good as everyone else.

[quote]How you can accept the 'absolute truth' of an organisation that has done so much evil in the name of Jesus is beyond me. people do some thinking for yourelf and don't just throw me back some quote from the catechism, anyone can do that. Engage me in some critical debate, argue with me, don't just say I am nuts and need the prayers of everyone to help me see the error of my ways and keep me out of the fires of hell - it doesn't scare me and it never will.[/quote]

The sins of individual members of the Church -- clergy and laity alike -- have NO bearing on the truth that the Church teaches. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. Not even the sins of wayward clergy or laity have been able to change that.

[quote]I love Jesus Christ but the church that supposedly represent him should be fired.[/quote]

Jesus said that those who love Him will keep His commandments. He also said that those who listen to the apostles listen to Him and that those who reject them reject Him.

[quote]Lets breathe some new life into this institution  [/quote]

New life? What do you mean? By turning the Church into what you want it to be? Shouldn't we be more concerned about the Church being what CHRIST wants it to be?

[quote]PS It seems like 'sin' and 'guilt' feature highly on many of your posts. Shouldn't we be a little more concerned with charity and compassion rather than judging others?[/quote]

To fail to warn someone about sin or eternal damnation when necessary is NOT compassion or charity. And warning and correcting others isn't judgmental. As for judging others, I'm sorry, but I found your initial post in this thread EXTREMELY hateful and judgmental toward orthodox Catholics.

Edited August 31, 2004 by Dave

[Dave]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 11:38 AM'] I love the Catholic Church and by that I mean the community, the church as people of God but I cannot sit idly by and just accept all of their teachings. If you guys can then good for you but I cannot. At some times we are asked and even demanded to speak up and tell it like it is.

Since people like quoting official church documents here is one to ponder

Christ … fulfills His prophetic office … not only by the hierarchy who teach in His name and by His power, but also by the laity …." (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, n. 35) [/quote]
You can't accept all her teachings? Or is it that you don't want to?

As for speaking up and telling it like it is, there are some things, namely Church doctrine and dogma, that are simply undebatable.

As for the Church document you cite, you're taking it out of context by acting like it means that the laity can go against Church teaching and be right in doing so. It doesn't say that.

[MichaelFilo]

I'll be happy to announce that the Jacksonville area is flourishing with Catholics, and the number grows, it seems.

I am also happy to announce that me and Eddie are priests to be (hopefully). We both hope to lead a life of chasity. We have a homosexual on PM who has given up sexual intercourse for the sake of following Church teaching.

There are those who love the Word. High sexual morality in the Church isn't so much the problem as the high sexual immorality outside it. I'd rather see a Church with a 100 believers who keep her sexual teaching, than 100,000,000 believers who don't keep the sexual teaching. If God changed, then he isn't perfect. If the body of Christ changed, than it isn't perfect.

God bless,

Mikey - For all those willing to keep the Faith pure.

[Dave]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 12:00 PM'] That said I will continue to call myself Catholic and receive communion guilt free.
[/quote]
If you receive Communion without accepting all the Church's teachings, you eat and drink judgment on yourself. Do you really want that?

[quote]I will exercise the right to let my conscience be my guide on matters of my faith. If I am correct my conscience can never be disobeyed even if it conflicts with official church teaching.[/quote]

You are quite incorrect. We have to follow a CORRECT and PROPERLY FORMED conscience -- one that is formed by the teachings of the Church as presented in Sacred Scripture and Tradition and transmitted to us via the Magisterium. We must follow our conscience even when its honestly mistaken, true. "Honestly," however is the key word. If a person was invincibly ignorant of Church teaching when they did whatever it was they did that went against the Church, then they'd be honestly mistaken. But if a person went against Church teaching because they'd made up their mind that the Church taught incorrectly, then while their conscience would be mistaken, it would NOT be honestly mistaken.

[quote]It is my hope that one day in the spirit of Vatican II we can continue to reform the Church[/quote]

I think you need to read just what Vatican II really said. It did NOT change any of the Church's teachings, as you seem to imply.

[godspeed]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 31 2004, 05:13 PM'] also, i take that position as a direct attack upon my soul and upon the souls of my generation, as well as upon their future families. you are working towards the destruction of souls, and it would be better for you to have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown into the ocean than for you to succeed in your mission to sexually liberate the Church.

"But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea." [i]Words of Our Lord Jesus Christ from The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter XVIII, Verse VI[/i]

Unless you repent and come into communion with the Church, then according to Church Teaching you should not be presenting yourself for Most Holy Communion and you commit sacrilidge by doing so.


This was not a nice post. I am sorry, however, but I am practicing one of the seven spiritual works of mercy known as ADMONISH THE SINNER.

May God have mercy on your soul. [/quote]
[QUOTE]

Thanks for that, real nice. Its wonderful to be told that I work for Satan in this individual's previous post.

I guess there is no room for my opinion on this website if that is what I am getting in return.

I will leave now, my day with you all was interesting if a little disturbing with posts like the one quoted

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 08:14 PM'] [QUOTE]

Thanks for that, real nice. Its wonderful to be told that I work for Satan in this individual's previous post.

I guess there is no room for my opinion on this website if that is what I am getting in return.

I will leave now, my day with you all was interesting if a little disturbing with posts like the one quoted [/quote]
I don't think you understand. It is common that Satan confuses people to think that all admonishment is condemnation, but that is farce.

Do you understand why the Church teaches what she does? I think that would be a good place to start.

[Aloysius]

i told you, not nice. i'm sorry, but i'm CONCERNED for you and for the people you intend to mislead!

you are attacking my generation by spreading the error of 'sexual liberation'. i'm warning you: such actions are MISLEADING Christ's little ones, and Christ will not tolerate it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Please stay here godspeed. Please don't run when you disagree. If you really feel you have the truth, why not try and spread it?

[Theoketos]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 31 2004, 03:56 PM'] godspeed,
Please stick around here a while. [/quote]
Ditto and Amen

[Dave]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 02:51 PM'] The Hierarchy of the church with the exception of Ratzinger (a liberal turned conservative) and a handful of others are seeking change in so many areas of doctrine. This will happen at some point in the future, possibly in our life time, I guarantee that to you all. I really do see your views and take them on board and I take offense at those who labeled me narrow minded – it’s not nice. Whether or not you agree with what I have to say is irrelevant as there is room for us all in the Church, there really is.




[/quote]
What makes you think the majority of the hierarchy want change? During the Arian heresy the majority of the clergy, I believe embraced it. But the Church never did embrace it. Just because something is popular doesn't make it right, and just because something is right doesn't make it popular.

The Church will NEVER change her doctrines -- not now or ever!

[quote]I respect the fact that so many of you follow all of the orders from Rome alas I cannot do that. God gave me a mind and I will use that to do what I feel is right.[/quote]

Again, you can't? Or is it that you don't want to? What we feel is right and what God feels is right is often not the same thing.

[quote]You would all be very surprised if you found out just how many of the clergy from Priests all the way up to Bishops and even some Cardinals are seeking change especially in the area of sexual morality.[/quote]

Just because there are clergy members who want change doesn't mean that changing Church doctrines can or will be done. Even clergy can sin.

[quote]The problem so many Catholics are experiencing now is an instinctive feeling that the Church is getting it wrong. If any of you are younger users you may be fortunate enough to be in a parish or group that is flourishing but this is not the case in most parishes either in the US or Europe. I have lived and worked for the church in three continents. The truth is that many parishes are dying out, parishioners are getting older, those entering the priesthood are fewer and sometimes we have to look at the facts – What will the Church have left to hand down if they won’t come to the table and talk? It is far too easy to brand someone a dissenter or a heretic and banish them to hell and far more difficult to listen to the genuine concerns of the majority of the RC population. By loose estimates for example 70% of the Catholic population have used or do use contraception.[/quote]

Catholics who have decided the Church has gotten it wrong have chosen to listen to their own feelings and opinions rather than to the Lord. As for vocations dwindling, did you know that orthodox dioceses tend to have many, many more vocations than heterodox ones? Also, seminary officials have often been the cause of fewer vocations -- they've tried to deny admission to orthodox candidates. And if such a man has succeeded in gaining admission regardless, often the officials have done all they could to make life miserable for him in the hope that he will leave. As for contraception, what's right isn't always popular, and what's popular isn't always right.

[quote]People are not listening to the church and quoting church documents will not change their minds either. So the choice is this: either banish every dissenter from the church and be left with a few or come to the table, listen to the concerns of Catholics worldwide and move forward[/quote]

If every dissenter was banished and we were only left with a few (if in fact there are only a few Catholics who aren't dissenters), at least those left would be FAITHFUL Catholics.

[Scofizzle]

It think it is a shame he has left.....he seems to be confused but deep within i can feel there is holiness there

[Socrates]

Who's obsessed with sex?
It seems to me the liberals are the ones obsessed with sex!
The Church preaches about greed, justice, violence, any number of other things, they just ignore it and yawn.
When the Church preaches about sexual morality, they suddenly jump up and scream that Church is "obsessed with sex"!

If one looks at the "gay rights" and "abortion rights" crowd, it is truly pathetic how obsessed these people are with their own sexual immorality and perversions - they let it define who they are and they never shut up about it! - sad.

[Dave]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Aug 31 2004, 11:08 PM'] Who's obsessed with sex?
It seems to me the liberals are the ones obsessed with sex!
The Church preaches about greed, justice, violence, any number of other things, they just ignore it and yawn.
When the Church preaches about sexual morality, they suddenly jump up and scream that Church is "obsessed with sex"!

If one looks at the "gay rights" and "abortion rights" crowd, it is truly pathetic how obsessed these people are with their own sexual immorality and perversions - they let it define who they are and they never shut up about it! - sad. [/quote]
You're correct, Socrates -- I talked about that in a previous post in this thread.