Fundamentalist Catholics

[ironmonk]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 12:01 PM'] I happened upon your website, very interesting.

Why is is that Fundamentalist and Extremist Catholic groups feel the need to wage hate campaigns in this election (and hate is putting it mildly) They hate homosexuals they hate people who support the right of a woman to have an abortion, they seem to hate everyone who doesn't agree with their version of 'truth'. It is a case of if you are not with me then you will likely burn in hell. Why are they so hung up on sex? Sex is an amazing gift from God. How anyone can still listen 100% to the moral hyperbole of this institution ESPECIALLY on issues of sexual morality with a straight face is beyond me!!! I have had sex before marriage but have never had sex with a 9 year old boy and I am supposed to tow the party line? As far as I and many other catholics are concerned, we don't buy it anymore.

How you can accept the 'absolute truth' of an organisation that has done so much evil in the name of Jesus is beyond me. people do some thinking for yourelf and don't just throw me back some quote from the catechism, anyone can do that. Engage me in some critical debate, argue with me, don't just say I am nuts and need the prayers of everyone to help me see the error of my ways and keep me out of the fires of hell - it doesn't scare me and it never will.

I love Jesus Christ but the church that supposedly represent him should be fired.

Lets breathe some new life into this institution

PS It seems like 'sin' and 'guilt' feature highly on many of your posts. Shouldn't we be a little more concerned with charity and compassion rather than judging others?

Just a thought.

A Kerry Voting pro-choice catholic [/quote]
It's a Catholic's obligation to know the Teachings of the Faith.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth... not the laymen.

Here are a few guides for real Catholic Faith stances... God speaks through the Church (St. Luke 10:16). Christ said the Church would never be overcome (St. Matt 16:18); if you believe in Christ, then you must believe that or you really do not believe.

To be Catholic is to be of One Faith....


[url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.scriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.scriptureCatholic.com[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.moraltruth.com/Danger.asp"]http://www.moraltruth.com/Danger.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url]


God lays down the law for what is right or wrong. Not man.


A vote for kerry is a grave sin. To support abortion is a grave sin. Sex outside of marriage is a grave sin. To support same sex marriage is a grave sin.

You say have charity and compassion rather than judging others after coming here and judging us? You are complaining about what you are doing. Saying a sin is a sin is not judging anyone. Charity demands fraternal correction.

Your assumptions about hate are wrong, also your view of history is distorted.


Please pick one topic, and let's cover it fully, and logically.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Ash Wednesday]

There *are* homosexuals and people with same-sex attractions that are regulars on this board. We even have Protestants and pagans on this board, too. We love all of them, and contrary to what you might be thinking, we generally get along well. If we "hated" them, they wouldn't be on here.

Maybe the reason why you hear us talk about "sin" and "guilt" a lot is because it is never generally talked about in public Catholic circles and we are trying to bring balance into the mix. They do exist, after all. I'm not into fear-based religion, but why ignore something that exists and is an epidemic in this world?

If you want to talk about election hatred, let me tell you -- if you're under the impression that one side of this election is exclusively peace-loving and the other is full of hate -- don't you kid yourself. Anyone that suggests that the "other side" is "evil and full of hate" is reeking of hypocrisy.

Contrary to popular belief, Vatican II is not the only council that matters and has existed. Jesus didn't walk this earth and immediately say "Here ya go!" and plop down the documents of the Second Vatican Council on our lap as the sole guide and authority in our faith. If you value being a Catholic, then you need to look at the big picture of the faith, and how the church has taught and formed over history's time. A lot of traditionalists are accused of being "closed minded" but I think liberal minded people on the other side of the coin are JUST as stubbornly closed minded.

And with all the anger going on right now, especially with politics, debate is fine -- and I say this to everyone -- but don't get so wrapped up in your issues and your anger that it blinds you to prayer, true wisdom and charity.

[dUSt]

godspeed,

If you don't believe in the church, then you shouldn't call yourself Catholic. It's dishonest. Call yourself non-denominational unless you can accept and follow the church's teaching. We are called to conform ourselves to Christ, not to conform Christ to ourselves.

God bless.

[Quietfire]

Reading Godspeed comments and everyones responses was great.
Here is my side.

Godspeed,
I am Catholic by desire.
Never being raised a Catholic with the exception of being baptised one is now, for me, seeing things in a whole new light.
I grew up thinking like you did. Everything you said, I once believed.

Something kept nagging at me.
I couldnt put my finger on it. But the world seemed to be spinning out of control and no one was at the helm to navigate. How many times have we heard it? How many times have you heard someone say that God should just come on down and finish with all of this, put an end to all this chaos that abounds, then we can start afresh?
I love Christ and would often pray for him to set me on the path.
Although the world created by God is glorious, it seemed that we were making quite the mess of it.
Everyone has and had an opinion and everyone had to be right. I am guilty of this as much as anyone. My opinions ruled my life and I couldnt be wrong since they seemed quite logical. I could argue a great arguement for abortion, separation of church and state, everyone doing their own thing as long as it didnt hurt anyone else, gay lifestyles, sex before marriage. You name it. Without any teaching from the Church, how opposite I was from her.

Life isnt like that.
There can be only one Truth.
Hard to take but true. I had to take a hard look at myself and 'my' world. I knew first and foremost that I wasnt part of this world. I would pass away and the world would continue without me here. (yeah, I had a real hard time with that one, since I was convinced the world revolved around ME !!)

I started to realize I had been living my life for me.
Now some may think this is fine. But listen carefully.
It is not the Truth. Until one lives for Christ, then one isnt living at all.
Its easy to say it, its much harder to actually mean it and do it.
How much of a pious coma many are in that simply think that if they follow there hearts then they are fine with God.
God wants so much more for us.
God wants so much more from us.

We know for instance that being gay is not a sin.
Its the acting out that is the sin.
Therefore, having a gay relationship is not following the will of Christ.

Sex is not a sin.
Sex though, outside of marriage cheapens both partners. There is nothing beautiful in it.
Dogs have sex too.
Sex outside of marriage is nothing more than an act of desire, an urge. Its selfishness.

Choosing self over God is wrong. Its a sin.

Anytime we choose us before God, then we are against God and are sinning. It really is that simple.

We can complain about the Church, that she isnt "with the times". The Church need not follow popular opinion. She has done quite well for over 2000 years.
She will be here after I am gone, after you are gone, still doing the same thing that she has done for two millenia...speaking the Truth. And oh, how unpopular the Truth is. Everybody wants the Truth but no one wants to honestly hear it. Especially when it doesnt jive with ones own way of thinking.
She has dealt with the Truth, and has done so admirably. It is you and I who have a hard time with the Truth.

Since we are simply cells in the body of Christ, we assume we can 'change' things for the better. The body though, cannot do what a body cannot do.
Since the Truth is Christ, and Christ is the head. And we (the Church) are the body, how can the body change what Truth is? It cannot. We cannot change Christ, but Christ can change us.

I live, yet not I, for Christ lives in me.
Therefore, I shall live for Christ.
He is my Truth.

Peace.

[p0lar_bear]

godspeed,

It seems you've gotten a full-out attack...

I realize that all the responses are probably a little much for you to address all at once. How about you start a thread about whatever topic you wish to discuss, so the field is narrowed a bit?

[godspeed]

An interesting debate everyone. I probably should come clean and inform you all that I work for the RC Church and have done for a number of years. The Hierarchy of the church with the exception of Ratzinger (a liberal turned conservative) and a handful of others are seeking change in so many areas of doctrine. This will happen at some point in the future, possibly in our life time, I guarantee that to you all. I really do see your views and take them on board and I take offense at those who labeled me narrow minded – it’s not nice. Whether or not you agree with what I have to say is irrelevant as there is room for us all in the Church, there really is. I respect the fact that so many of you follow all of the orders from Rome alas I cannot do that. God gave me a mind and I will use that to do what I feel is right.

You would all be very surprised if you found out just how many of the clergy from Priests all the way up to Bishops and even some Cardinals are seeking change especially in the area of sexual morality. The problem so many Catholics are experiencing now is an instinctive feeling that the Church is getting it wrong. If any of you are younger users you may be fortunate enough to be in a parish or group that is flourishing but this is not the case in most parishes either in the US or Europe. I have lived and worked for the church in three continents. The truth is that many parishes are dying out, parishioners are getting older, those entering the priesthood are fewer and sometimes we have to look at the facts – What will the Church have left to hand down if they won’t come to the table and talk? It is far too easy to brand someone a dissenter or a heretic and banish them to hell and far more difficult to listen to the genuine concerns of the majority of the RC population. By loose estimates for example 70% of the Catholic population have used or do use contraception.

People are not listening to the church and quoting church documents will not change their minds either. So the choice is this: either banish every dissenter from the church and be left with a few or come to the table, listen to the concerns of Catholics worldwide and move forward

I was sad to see my thread deleted I suppose all are not welcome here

[color=red][edited by dUSt: spam] [/color] - for those not too stubborn to try to understand other views

[p0lar_bear]

Your thread wasn't deleted, just moved.


BTW, We Are Church is anything but Catholic and I have asked the moderaters to delete the link. We do not allow links to sites hostile to the Church.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Just as a bishop only legitimately exercises his teaching role when he is in union with the Holy Father, the faithful are called to be docile to the teachings of the Church. The faithful are obligated to inform their consciences properly and according to the Faith. Because it works in opposition to the Church, dissent is not a legitimate example of the sense of the faithful.[/quote]

Wonderfully put. Also, Ash Wendnesday, I agree wholeheartedly with the points you made in your post.

Godspeed, I would like to address your most recent points. While I agree that there are a great many unorthodox members of the laity and even clergy who would like to see a change in the teaching of the Church in matters of contraception, homosexuality, etc, it will not happen. First and foremost, the Spirit guides the Church and does not let her err in matters of faith and morals. Second, the Holy Father has already made an infallible declaration on both the matters of contraception and homosexuality. Third, the Theology of the Body is a mind-bogglingly detailed explanation of the theology behind these issues. If you have not read it, I highly recommend it.

Also, I would just like to ask a few questions, if you don't mind.

1.) Do you believe that the Catholic Church (please avoid the term "Roman Catholic" or "Catholic Church" becuase it ignores the many other Rites of the Church) is the Church founded by Christ?

2.) Do you believe that it is protected from error in matters of faith and morals by the Spirit, and that, as Christ said, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?"

3.) Do you believe that Holy Scripture is Inspired by the Spirit?

4.) Do you believe that Holy Tradition is Inspired by the Spirit?



Also, just for the record, I would like to point something out with regards to the idea of "an erring conscience binds" that can be found in St. Thomas Aquinas' [i]Summa[/i].

First, when St. Thomas speaks on the matter, he is speaking of a fully formed and well developed conscience. Thus, conscience does not provide a universal wall behind which one can hide (I'm not saying that you are, in fact, I am assuming that your conscience is, in fact, fully formed).

Secondly, while an erring conscience binds, [i]it still errs[/i].

Allow me to expound on this with regards to the issue of, say, contraception.

1.) Let us imagine a person whose conscience is fully formed but still cannot believe in his or her heart that it is a mortal sin to use contraception.
2.) The Church clearly states that using contraception is a mortal sin.

So, what is the person to do?

We understand that it is a sin to go against one's conscience. However, would it be a sin, in the case above, for a person to actively choose to follow the teachings of the church? The answer is no, it would not. For in the case above, the person's conscience (which is in error) maintains only that it is not a sin to use contraception.

However, someone who believes it is "ok" to use contraception does not necessarily use it.

We know that obedience and humble submission to the teaching authority of the Church is a good and holy thing, thus, the holiest option is for the person whose conscience is in error is to follow and obey the Church as far as they can without being forced to sin.

Even the person who believes contraception is ok would not say that [i]not[/i] using it is sinful. Even the person who believes homosexuality is ok would not say that [i]not[/i] engaging in homosexual acts is sinful.

Thus, even one who has an erring conscience with regards to the matter of contraception is not at liberty to engage in sex with the use of contraception.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 02:51 PM'] An interesting debate everyone. I probably should come clean and inform you all that I work for the RC Church and have done for a number of years. The Hierarchy of the church with the exception of Ratzinger (a liberal turned conservative) and a handful of others are seeking change in so many areas of doctrine. This will happen at some point in the future, possibly in our life time, I guarantee that to you all. I really do see your views and take them on board and I take offense at those who labeled me narrow minded – it’s not nice. Whether or not you agree with what I have to say is irrelevant as there is room for us all in the Church, there really is.  I respect the fact that so many of you follow all of the orders from Rome alas I cannot do that. God gave me a mind and I will use that to do what I feel is right.

You would all be very surprised if you found out just how many of the clergy from Priests all the way up to Bishops and even some Cardinals are seeking change especially in the area of sexual morality. The problem so many Catholics are experiencing now is an instinctive feeling that the Church is getting it wrong. If any of you are younger users you may be fortunate enough to be in a parish or group that is flourishing but this is not the case in most parishes either in the US or Europe. I have lived and worked for the church in three continents. The truth is that many parishes are dying out, parishioners are getting older, those entering the priesthood are fewer and sometimes we have to look at the facts – What will the Church have left to hand down if they won’t come to the table and talk? It is far too easy to brand someone a dissenter or a heretic and banish them to hell and far more difficult to listen to the genuine concerns of the majority of the RC population. By loose estimates for example 70% of the Catholic population have used or do use contraception.

People are not listening to the church and quoting church documents will not change their minds either. So the choice is this: either banish every dissenter from the church and be left with a few or come to the table, listen to the concerns of Catholics worldwide and move forward

I was sad to see my thread deleted I suppose all are not welcome here

[color=red]Edited for SPAM[/color] - for those not too stubborn to try to understand other views [/quote]
Many of us here work for the Church in various positions. Things will not turn to heresy. The Gates of Hell shall not prevail.

To suggest that the Magisterium is leaning toward your ideals is ridiculous. I don't know what kind of skewed environment you work in, but I can tell you that the vast majority of the Magisterium is concerned with orthodoxy.

There is room for everyone in the Church, so long as they accept the Church and don't try to change her.

There is no room for heresy in the Church.

I cannot judge your mind or will, but the viewpoints you have expressed are grave errors.

Edited September 1, 2004 by Kilroy the Ninja

[dUSt]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:51 PM'] The truth is that many parishes are dying out, parishioners are getting older, those entering the priesthood are fewer and sometimes we have to look at the facts – What will the Church have left to hand down if they won’t come to the table and talk? It is far too easy to brand someone a dissenter or a heretic and banish them to hell and far more difficult to listen to the genuine concerns of the majority of the RC population. By loose estimates for example 70% of the Catholic population have used or do use contraception. [/quote]
It's funny how your opinion of decline is in complete contrast with the [b]reality[/b] I see right here in Arlington TX. Guess what? The "orthodox" (faithful to church teaching) church has four masses on Sunday, and ALL of them are over-crowded. The "liberal" parish across town has only two masses on Sunday, and they're usually only about 1/2 full.

Go figure.

[StColette]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 10:01 AM'] Why is is that Fundamentalist and Extremist Catholic groups feel the need to wage hate campaigns in this election (and hate is putting it mildly) They hate homosexuals they hate people who support the right of a woman to have an abortion, they seem to hate everyone who doesn't agree with their version of 'truth'. [/quote]
First of all using the word "hate" is in no way putting it mildly. Hate is probably the strongest word that can ever be used to describe extreme distaste for something or someone, that's why we don't use the word "hate".

As many of the others have already said, we do not hate homosexuals in any way shape or form. We however do hate homosexual activity. The Bible provides many verses that speak out against homosexual activity not the people themselves.

Ever hear the saying Love the Sinner Hate the Sin

Moving on to the next part, we do not hate people who support the right of a woman to have an abortion. In fact we pray for those people daily that they can learn to understand that abortion is terribly wrong. The Bible says the following about abortion and what a wonderful gift a child is from God:

[i] "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him." --Psalm
127:3

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from
her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as
the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges
determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." -
-Exodus 21:22-25

"Cursed is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent person." --
Deu 27:25

"..do not shed innocent blood..." --Jeremiah 7:6 [/i]

[i]"Thou shalt not kill." (Exodus 20:13)[/i]

Now if you put up the argument that a fetus isn't a baby this is what the Bible says:

[i]Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.'" (Jer. 1:4-5)[/i]

Before God even placed the child within the womb of its mother He knew the child.

Now from the Didache

[quote]The Way of Life is this: "Thou shalt love first the Lord thy Creator, and 
secondly thy neighbour as thyself; and thou shalt do nothing to any man 
that thou wouldst not wish to be done to thyself."

2. The second commandment in the Teaching means: Commit no murder, 
adultery, sodomy, fornication, or theft. Practise no magic, sorcery, 
ABORTION(emphasis not in original), or infanticide. See that you do not
covet anything your  neighbour possesses, and never be guilty of perjury,
false witness,  slander, or malice. Do not equivocate in thought or speech,
for a double  tongue is a deadly snare; the words you speak should not be
false or  empty phrases, but fraught with purposeful action. You are not to
be  avaricious or extortionate, and you must resist any temptation to 
hypocrisy, spitefulness, or superiority. You are to have no malicious 
designs on a neighbour. You are to cherish no feelings of hatred for 
anybody; some you are to reprove, some to pray for, and some again to 
love more than your own life.

Didache 2,2: "you shall not kill a child by abortion nor kill it after it
is born."

[/quote]

Now from Early Christians and Church Fathers:

Flavius Josephus, "Against Apion" 2:202: "The law [Jewish law] orders us
to bring up all our children,and forbids women to cause abortion of that
which is begotten; and if any woman seems to have done so,she will be a
murderer of her own child,by destroying a living creature." (Probably late
first century AD).

Sibylline Oracles 2.281-82: " ...as many as aborted what they carried in
the womb, as many as cast forth their offspring unlawfully [will be
punished after the resurrection]."

Tertullian, Apologeticum 9:8: For us, since murder has been forbidden, it
is also not permitted to dissolve what is conceived in the womb while the
blood is being formed into a human being. It is an anticipation of murder
to keep one from being born; nor does it make a difference whether one
takes the life of one already born, or disturbs one in the process of being
born: even the one who is going to be a human being is one." Text from
Sources Chrétiennes No.108,p.184.(Written about 197 A.D.)

St.Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 52, to Cornelius: "He [the schismatic
Novatian] struck the womb of his wife with his heel and hurried an
abortion, thereby causing parricide." (Written about 251 AD)

St.Basil the Great, Epistle 138: "He who destroys the fetus deliberately
is guilty of murder." PG 36:672. (Written about 375
AD)

St.Jerome, Epistle 22.13: [speaking of virgins] "Others drink for
sterility and commit murder on the human not yet sown. Some when they sense
that they have conceived by sin, consider the poisons for abortion, and
frequently die themselves along with it, and go to hell guilty of three
crimes: murdering themselves, committing adultery against Christ, and murder
against their unborn child." PL 22.401. (Written about 380 AD).

I could keep going but I believe you see the point that abortion is a very horrible thing to commit and has been since the very beginning. Now in supporting a political offical who is Pro-Choice you are trying to put someone in office who does not believe that abortion is horrible thing to do. By trying to elect this person you are in support of abortion because that political figure will in no way try about stop abortion.

This post isn't meant to seem uncharitable if it seems that way, I'm very big on being charitable and kind to people but I also like people to be informed on what the Church, Bible, and Church Fathers have to say on topics such as this.

God Bless,
Jennie

Edited August 31, 2004 by StColette

[toledo_jesus]

despite what some members of the Church hierarchy could possibly perhaps and maybe want to change, the Holy Spirit will protect the Church. That's a belief you need to hold before you start expounding on how the Church is in decline. There is a correlation between liberalization and decline in attendance at a church. look into it.
Abortion should not even be CLOSE to acceptable to a Catholic. It is murder.
There are conditions of being a Catholic that you can't find a loophole around, that you can't change, that you can't just ignore. Facts are facts and the fact is that you are wrong.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

godspeed,
Please stick around here a while.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='godspeed' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:51 PM'] I really do see your views and take them on board and I take offense at those who labeled me narrow minded ? it?s not nice. [/quote]
I'm not sure if the offense taken was due to my calling some liberals narrow minded -- I was not directing that at you and I am sorry if it seemed that way -- if you were truly narrow minded you wouldn't even be here willing to discuss things. I was referring to the hypocrisy of liberalism when it roundly criticizes the Church for "refusal to change" without questioning their own unwillingness to let go of "change on demand."

However, I disagree the idea that the Church will make a reversal on "the issues", and within our lifetime. They have been saying that for 40 years. There were so many priests instructing married couples in the 60s that artificial contraception was okay, because they predicted that it would be changed with the council. When Pope Paul VI upheld the church's teaching on artificial contraception in Humanae Vitae, a lot of shock and frustration followed it. It's been the same ever since. I don't think it "the issues" will be changed in our lifetime or in anyone's.

What does that mean? The ways of God are not the way of the world. The church, inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit, do not act as a democracy. Just because "the majority" or "most people" think something is right, does not make it so. Jesus was truth -- he would not compromise on what he had to say, and "the majority of the people" around him killed him for it.

There's no question that many people in the heirarchy dissent on teaching, as it has been since the 60s. However, I believe people are reactionary creatures, and I believe the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction, returning to orthodoxy and emphasis on traditionalism. I daresay some of the young priests and seminarians out there are more traditional and strict in their approach than I am -- that is to say -- while staying within the realms of being faithful to the magesterium.

People have been crying chicken little about the priesthood for at least 20 years. People have also predicted the death of the church for 2000 years.

But they forget one simple but profound fact:
God always has the last word.

[Aloysius]

anyone working to change the Church's teaching which hold up the sacredness of human sexuality as to be reserved only for a man and a woman who are married is working for Satan.

thus for all these people high up that you speak of, all I can say is
"The smoke of Satan has entered the Sanctuary" -Pope Paul IV