Cam42 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 So here is a thought.....the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us this about heresy: CCC 2089: "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same. While we are to be wary of them, we are also to minister to them. If we have no tolerance for those who don't accept what we believe, then how are we to correct them? Beating them over the head with the Catechism and Bible, I think not. We als have to be very careful in the use of the word heresy or heretic. The Church doesn't use it very often and when she does, she is very specific on the definiton and application. Also, did you know that there are two types of heresy? The Church expressly distinguishes between "formal" and "material" heretics. A "formal" heretic rejects the Church and its teaching absolutely and with full deliberation; a "material" heretic rejects the Church from lack of knowledge, being influenced by false prejudice or by an anti-Catholic upbringing. So, which kind of heresy are you talking about? Formal heretics or material heretics? Once we have discerned that.....we can then talk about applying the teaching as defined in the CCC stated above. As was said earlier, the examen, is a good one, but not binding in anyway.... What is the Greatest Commandment again? Mt 22:34-40. And where does it say that they have to believe what we do in order to follow? Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicguy Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='dUSt' date='Aug 30 2004, 11:53 PM'] CC, you should like people more. [/quote] [quote]CC, you have a lot of hate.[/quote] I am sorry, but this just seems humorous to me... all he did was post two quotes from Saints and an examination of the First Commandment. How exactly, may I ask, is that hate and dislike? I thought admonishing the sinner/sin was a spiritual act of mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicguy Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 31 2004, 07:45 AM'] 3. Have I suggested or encouraged doubts about the Catholic faith in the minds of others? CC You cause me to doubt my faith on a regular basis... [/quote] Hmm... CC, as far as I have read his posts, seems very Catholic and orthodox to me... could the problem be that you do not follow the Catholic faith fully, such as I assume you mean EENS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 "I thought admonishing the sinner/sin was a spiritual act of mercy." It is, but that is not what was going on......there must be a sense of charity involved. We cannot simply tee off on a person because he doesn't believe what we do. The Church also teaches that there are aspects of truth in other Faiths. The problem is that there is not the fullness of the truth, as found in the Church. CCC 818: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." This is part of the reason why the Church is so careful about the stating of one as a heretic or of a group in heresy. Although it does happen, look at the SSPX and the Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Aug 31 2004, 10:08 AM'] It seems some here have totally missed the point and are having a problem connecting the dots. There are dogs and swine which need to be rejected. Someone who is sincerely seeking truth are not dogs and swine. It boggles my mind how some people cannot pay attention to the whole (many other posts) instead of getting tunnel vision about one post or quote. When people post, all their other posts about the topic or related topic should be taken into consideration.... not just the one post. As for mixed marriages, here is what the Church has to say... God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] Hey bro ... not sure who you posted this for ... but let me clarify something for everyone ... I said what I said because CC posts regarding heretics have been rampant. What I gather from his posts is that we, as Catholics, are never ever to associate with anyone that is not. So, therefore in his brain ... I must have committed a mortal sin by marrying a non Catholic - since all non Catholics are obviously heretics. (realize that I'm making some logic leaps here) Eventhough I was granted dispensation by my Dioscean Bishop - (as the Cathechism references you provided supports - and thank you for that, btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Upon further reflection - I'd like to say that I may be quite wrong in my logic. So, I ask this of CC ... The quote from the Catechism that Cam provided (welcome, btw!): [quote]However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[/quote] Quite simply: Do you believe all protestants are heretics? And, if so, how do you evangelize them? If you believe that they are all "swine and dogs" - meaning that we should not associate with them, how do we bring them to the Fullness of Truth? Or are we all just supposed to be born into the Church? I'm having a really hard time understanding what it is you really believe, so please help me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Azriel' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:30 PM'] Hey bro ... not sure who you posted this for ... but let me clarify something for everyone ... I said what I said because CC posts regarding heretics have been rampant. What I gather from his posts is that we, as Catholics, are never ever to associate with anyone that is not. So, therefore in his brain ... I must have committed a mortal sin by marrying a non Catholic - since all non Catholics are obviously heretics. (realize that I'm making some logic leaps here) Eventhough I was granted dispensation by my Dioscean Bishop - (as the Cathechism references you provided supports - and thank you for that, btw) [/quote] I posted it for whoever needed to read it... Our conscience will often convict us of the faults we are blind to within ourselves. Take for example... If someone says to another person "I don't need to tell you what you are, you know what you are." Then typically the person's conscience will convict them and they will draw a conclusion, which is often correct. The statement prompts us to do a self reflection on what they could possibly mean. Sometimes people think that a post I have done is directed at them... many times, they are not directed at those people, and clarification posts from them are a result... sometimes people realize something new from reading it. It's all about growth in Christ. On another note... I have not seen CC being hateful at all. If he was hateful, why would he spend time trying to correct his brethern. Some people here are not ready to minister to non-Catholics... Some people needed to read his post from the Saints. Some people who try to minister to non-Catholics might get enticed by twistings of the Church teachings and then leave the Church. This thread was needed... and the people who need it, know who they are... It does not apply to all here who try to claim that he is being hateful... On the contrary, what is more loving than wanting to keep Christ's flock being sheparded by the people appointed by Christ? God Bless, ironmonk Edited August 31, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Aug 31 2004, 11:51 AM'] It's all about growth in Christ. [/quote] Amen to that bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Wait, would public schools be considered totally evil by point 15? And I accidently bought a NASB once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='catholicguy' date='Aug 31 2004, 10:27 AM'] I am sorry, but this just seems humorous to me... all he did was post two quotes from Saints and an examination of the First Commandment. How exactly, may I ask, is that hate and dislike? I thought admonishing the sinner/sin was a spiritual act of mercy. [/quote] true, but how is it a SIN to not attend catholic school? they are a bit expensive ya know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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