What The?

[[jas]]

I found this from following a couple random links from here.

Can somebody please explain to me why someone is not considered forgiven because someone else didn't say the correct words to them???

[Dave]

Simply because the Church has made it clear that confessors are to say, at the very least, "I absolve you from your sins in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen." Jesus endowed His Church with authority, and thus it has the authority to determine the parameters to be set for a valid celebration of a sacrament -- any sacrament, not just penance.

In the same way, a priest must at least say, "This is my body, which will be given up for you" and "This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant" for the consecration to take place at Mass.

[[jas]]

Simply because the Church has made it clear that confessors are to say, at the very least, "I absolve you from your sins in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Amen."  Jesus endowed His Church with authority, and thus it has the authority to determine the parameters to be set for a valid celebration of a sacrament -- any sacrament, not just penance. 

So what you're saying is that the church has the authority to dictate to God that this person is forgiven, but this person isn't because his priest mixed up some words?

[[jas]]

What do you mean? We are forgiven before we even go to confession.

So what's the point in going then?

The link you provided doesn't address the issue of a priest not using the correct words of absolution.

You're right, it refers to another question that does (which I wasn't able to find, I'll have another look when I've got more time). But it does say that this person who was not "correctly" absolved has to dig up all this stuff from the past to confess to another priest so they can be forgiven for it.

[Dave]

So what you're saying is that the church has the authority to dictate to God that this person is forgiven, but this person isn't because his priest mixed up some words?

Nope, it's the other way around. God has led His Church to the proper formula for absolution. And as for mixing up words, a mere slip of the tongue isn't enough to invalidate an absolution. But willfully using a wrong formula is.

[[jas]]

ah, i see dUst uses his admin powers to delete his own posts... no wonder it broke when i tried to quote it

and yes, he's also made me look silly because the original post i was quoting has been dissapeared. oh well.

[dUSt]

So what's the point in going then?

To recieve absolution and penance.

You're right, it refers to another question that does (which I wasn't able to find, I'll have another look when I've got more time). But it does say that this person who was not "correctly" absolved has to dig up all this stuff from the past to confess to another priest so they can be forgiven for it.

Right. Seems logical to me.

[dUSt]

,Sep 18 2003, 09:52 AM] ah, i see dUst uses his admin powers to delete his own posts... no wonder it broke when i tried to quote it 

and yes, he's also made me look silly because the original post i was quoting has been dissapeared. oh well.

Sorry. After posting, I realized I could have worded it better, but responded to your quote anyway.

[[jas]]

To recieve absolution and penance.

Honest question, I thought that basically did mean being forgiven. What's the difference?

Right. Seems logical to me.

Good.

[Jake Huether]

,Sep 18 2003, 08:45 AM]

So what you're saying is that the church has the authority to dictate to God that this person is forgiven, but this person isn't because his priest mixed up some words?

"Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven"

God dictated to the Church that He would accept whatever the Church decided. So...

In a sence... yes.

Like if I'm your boss and I tell you. I will do whatever you ask of me. Then I've given you authority over me - although I am really the one in charge. And since the Holy Spirit guides the Church, there really is not conflict in interest. The Church does the will of God.

[[jas]]

Sorry. After posting, I realized I could have worded it better, but responded to your quote anyway.

No worries :)

[ryanmeyersmusic]

CATECHISM:

1257: The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

By the same logic, God has bound the forgiveness of sins to the sacrament of pennance, but he himself is not bound by the sacraments.

CATECHISM:

1452: When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

Thus, the pentitent's intent was a sacrament of pennance. A perfect contrition absolves him/her of mortal sin.

[dUSt]

,Sep 18 2003, 09:57 AM] Honest question, I thought that basically did mean being forgiven. What's the difference?

Good.

Penance is the things you do to show God that you are truly sorry for your sins. Kind of like if you make your mom mad, you might do the dishes to show her that you're really sorry. Sure, you can tell her your sorry, but unless your actions reflect that, are you really?

[Dave]

Actually, penance is what helps remove the temporal punishment that comes with sin. For example, King David repented for of affair with Bathsheba and having her husband killed. But his son still died as punishment.

And as for dUSt's example, well, it might be better to adjust the scenario a little. Suppose you made your mom mad. And you were sorry, and she forgave you. But as punishment, you had to do the dishes. Nothing unfair about that; you need to be taught a lesson!

[ryanmeyersmusic]

or if you made your mom mad and asked for forgiveness. she forgave you, but still issued the punishment that you were grounded for 3 weeks. you dad said "try doing the dishes and i'll make sure you get out of groundation." you did the dishes, she removed the punishment thanks to her unique relationship with your dad and his ability to communicate for her.