The One True Church

[skuba steve]

i was talking to God on the way to work before and he gave me a picture...

Imagine there was an apple orchid.... this apple orchid grew the best apples in the world and that's all they did and had been doing for years...

now one day someone comes and tears up all the apple trees and plants orange trees so now the apple orchid grows oranges.

And the apple orchid happily grows oranges for many many years....

but then something happens

da da daaa daa...

Someone realises that the apple orchid should really be growing apples and so they plant apple trees in another place and begin to grow apples just like before because they want what was originally produced at the apple orchid. Apples.

But the workers from the original apple orchid that now grows oranges say,

"Your apples are not really apples, our orchid grows real apples and we can prove it because we can trace our orchid right back to the original apples. They are even growing from the same soil. Your apples can't be real apples because they can't be traced back to the original apples like ours can. And they should be orange anyway. red apples BLeH!"

Who is really growing apples?

[MC Just]

1AD-36? Life of Jesus Christ

1AD First year in Christian calendar (a.d. = anno Domini) (see 525), Augustus

(Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus) is emperor of Rome

6 Herod Archelaus deposed by Augustus; Samaria, Judea and Idumea annexed as

province Iudaea under direct Roman administration, cap. Caesarea

6-? Quirinius: Legate (Governor) of Syria, 1st Roman tax census of Iudaea

6-9 Coponius: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)

7-26 Brief period of peace, free of revolt and bloodshed in Iudaea & Galilee

9-12? M. Ambivius: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)

12?-15 Annius Rufus: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)

14-37 Tiberius I emperor of Rome, b. 42BC

25? Assumption (Testament) of Moses, original Hebrew extant Latin (Apocrypha)

26-36 Pontius Pilate: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)

27-29? John the Baptist begins ministry (Luke 3,1-2) (15th year of Tiberius)

27-34? Jesus baptized by John the Baptist (Mk1:4-11)

33-34? John the Baptist arrested and killed by Herod Antipas (Luke 3,19-20)

33-36? Jesus' ministry

36? Jesus crucified, Friday, Nisan 14th, March 30th, [Ref: John, Unauthorized

Version/Fox] Last Supper would have been Thursday evening. (7Apr30 &

3Apr33 possible Fri/14/Nisan crucifixion dates)

36?-65? Period of oral tradition in Christianity between the time of Jesus and the time

the first gospel (Mark) is written, original Christians disperse throughout

Judea and Samaria (Acts 8,1ff), Peter leads the new Christian Church,

moves the Church headquarters to Rome

36?-67 Period Peter leads the new Christian Church, moves the church headquarters

from Jerusalem to Rome

36?-37 Paul of Tarsus has Stephen martyred and the Jerusalem church destroyed

37 Paul of Tarsus is converted (Acts 9)

37-41 Gaius Caligula emperor of Rome, declared himself god

37-41? Marullus: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)

40 Paul goes to Jerusalem to consult with Peter (Gal 1, 18-20)

41-54 Claudius emperor of Rome, killed by poisoning by his wife Agrippina

44 James, brother of John, executed by Herod Agrippa I (Acts 12, 1-3)

47-48 Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus (Acts 13, 4-12)

48-49 Council of Jerusalem, 1st Christian Council, doctrine regarding circumcision

and dietary law is agreed to by apostles and presbyters, written in a letter

addressed to "the brothers of Gentile origin in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia"

(Acts 15)

48-57? Paul writes Galations

49-50 Paul in Corinth (Acts 18)

50? Peshitta translation begun, Hebrew OT->Syriac Aramaic, (Greek NT in 400)

50? Ascension of Isaiah, original written in Hebrew (Ethiopic Bible)

51-52 Paul writes 1 Thes

51-52 Paul writes 2 Thes

53-62 Paul writes Phil

54-68 Nero emperor of Rome

56 Paul writes 1 Corin

57 Paul writes Romans

57 Paul writes 2 Corin

57 Paul's last visit to Jerusalem [Acts21]

58 Paul arrested, imprisoned in Caesarea [Acts25:4]

59 Nero kills his mother, Agrippina

60 Paul imprisoned in Rome (Acts 28,16)

61-63? Paul? writes Ephesians

61-63 Paul writes Philemon

61-63 Paul writes Colossians

61-63? Paul? writes 1,2 Timothy, Titus, known as "pastoral epistles"

62? James written by leader of Jerusalem community? (Gal 2,9?), "catholic"

epistle

62 Paul martyred for treason in Rome

62 {Being therefore this kind of person [i.e., a heartless Sadducee], Ananus,

thinking that he had a favorable opportunity because Festus had died and

Albinus was still on his way, called a meeting [literally, "sanhedrin"] of

judges and brought into it the brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah,

James by name, and some others. He made the accusation that they had

transgressed the law, and he handed them over to be stoned.}

[JA20.9.1,Marginal Jew,p.57]

62 Nero kills his wife Octavia and marries Poppaea Sabina

64 Great fire of Rome, started by Nero and blamed on Christians, {Therefore to

squelch the rumor , Nero

created scapegoats and subjected to the most refined tortures those whom

the common people called "Christians," [a group] hated for their abominable

crimes. Their name comes from Christ, who, during the reign of Tiberius, had

been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate. Suppressed for the moment,

the deadly superstition broke out again, not only in Judea, the land which

originated this evil, but also in the city of Rome, where all sorts of

horrendous and shameful practices from every part of the world converge

and are fervently cultivated.} [Tacitus Annals 15.44;Marginal

Jew;Meier;p.89-90]

64-95? 1 Peter written in Rome, by Peter the apostle?, "catholic" epistle

65-125 Period in which 4 Gospels, Acts, Revelations, and remaining epistles written

- Peter martyred before 1st Holy Gospel is written, 7 Popes before last

epistle is completed

65? Q written, (German:Quelle, meaning "source") a hypothetical Greek text used

in writing of Matthew and Luke

65-150 Didache: Instructions of the Apostles written

65-150 Dialogue of the Savior, Gospel of Peter

65-150 Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1224 fragments: pub. 1914

65-150 Gospel of Thomas written, based on Q?, pub. 1959, Greek originals: Papyrus

Ox. 1,654-5

65-175 Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 840 fragments: pub. 1908

65-175 Papyrus Egerton 2 (Unknown Gospel) fragments: pub. 1935/87, in Greek

from Palestine, one of the oldest extant Christian texts (~175)

65-250 Papyrus Fayum (P. Vindob. G. 2325) fragments: pub. 1887

65-350 "Jewish-Christian Gospels": 7 fragments of Gospel of the Ebionites and 7

fragments of Gospel of the Hebrews in Greek; 36 fragments of Gospel of the

Nazarenes in Aramaic; [Ref: NT Apocrypha, W. Schneemelcher, vol. 1]

66-70 Roman-Jewish War: final destruction of Second Temple (Herod's Temple)

67 Peter martyred, crucified upside down in Rome

67-78 Pope Linus, 2nd Pope, succeeds Peter (Linus mentioned in 2 Tm 4,21)

67 General Vespasian of Rome conquers Galilee

68 Nero commits suicide, resurrects as "Nero redivivus", Rev's 666? (see 81)

68 Galba emperor of Rome (6/68-1/69)

68 Qumran (Essenes?) community destroyed by Rome, site of Dead Sea Scrolls

found in 1949

69 Otho emperor of Rome (1/69-4/69)

69 Vitellius emperor of Rome (6/69-12/69)

69 Flavian Dynasty of Rome (Vespian, Titus, Domitian)

69-79 Vespian emperor of Rome, quells unrest in Rome and Jerusalem

70 Collapse of Jewish self-government in Judea and destruction of the Temple in

Jerusalem

70 Gospel according to Mark written in Rome, by Peter's interpreter? (1 Peter

5,13), original ending apparently lost, endings added c 400

70? "Signs Gospel" written, hypothetical Greek text used in Gospel of John to

prove Jesus is the Messiah

70-640 Sanhedrin (High Court) period of Judaism, rise of house of Hillel

75-90 Gospel according to Luke written, based on Mark and Q

75-90 Acts of the Apostles written, same author as Gospel according to Luke

79-81 Titus emperor of Rome, eldest son of Vespasian

79-91 Pope Anacletus, 3rd Pope, known as "blameless" (as in Titus 1,7?)

79 Mt Vesuvius, volcano overlooking Naples Bay, erupts, engulfs Pompeii

80-85 Gospel according to Matthew written, based on Mark and Q, most popular in

early Church

81-96 Domitian emperor of Rome, son of Vespasian, "Nero redivivus?" (see 68)

81-96 Revelations written, by John (son of Zebedee) and/or a disciple of his

90-100 1 John written, by author(s) of 4th gospel, "catholic" epistle

90-100 2,3 John written, by "elder", disciple of John (son of Zebedee)?, "catholic"

epistle

90-100 Gospel according to John written, by John (son of Zebedee) and others, only

eyewitness to Jesus?, disciple Jesus loved?, Gnostic?

90? Josephus claims exactly 22 Jewish (OT) books: 5 Law, 13 History, 4 Hymns

91-101 Pope Clement I, 4th Pope, (mentioned in Phil 4,3), wrote letter to Corinth in

95 called "1 Clement"

94 "Jewish Antiquities", by Josephus in Aramaic, trans. to Grk., Testimonium

Flavianum: {At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a

doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with

pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many

of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the

leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him

previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of

Christians (named after him) has not died out.} [JA18.3.3 Meier redaction,

Marginal Jew, p.61]

96? Hebrews written, by ?

96-98 Nerva emperor of Rome

98-116 Trajan emperor of Rome, Roman empire reaches maximum size

100? Odes of Solomon, written in Greek or Syriac, ref by John? (Apocrypha)

100? Epistle of Barnabas, Christian exegesis of LXX (AF = Apostolic Fathers)

100? 2 Clement, an old sermon but not by Clement (AF = Apostolic Fathers)

100? 2 Esdras (Vg:4 Esdras), Hebrew?, claims 24 OT books (Vulgate & Peshitta)

100? Apocalypse of Baruch (2 Baruch:Syriac, 3 Baruch:Greek) (Peshitta)

100? Paralipomena of Jeremiah (4 Baruch), written in Hebrew (Ethiopic Bible)

100? Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Aramaic and Hebrew fragments found

at Qumran Caves 1,4 (Armenian Bible)

100? Jude written, probably by doubting relative of Jesus (Mark 6,3), rejected by

some early Christians due to its reference to apocryphal Book of Enoch

(v14), "catholic" epistle

100-125? 2 Peter written, by ?, not accepted into canon until early 400s, drew upon

Epistle of Jude, "catholic" epistle

100-150 Secret Book (Apocryphon) of James, Gospel of Mary Magdalene, Infancy

Gospels of Thomas and James, Secret Gospel (of Mark) (Complete Gospels)

101-109 Pope Evaristus, 5th Pope

109-116 Pope Alexander, 6th Pope

110? Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, written by Polycarp (160) (AF)

110? "Letters of Ignatius", bishop of Antioch, martyred in Rome, his letters were

subjected to heavy Christian forgery esp. 4th cent. (Apostolic Fathers)

116-125 Pope Sixtus I, 7th Pope

History Proves that the Catholic Church can be traced back to Jesus. We have writings to prove it, and we have posted those writings, are you trying to tell us that the writings are false? Our Church was teaching way before King James' Errorful Bible came into existance. It's sad that you only understand and look into what you believe and don't consider what we believe. Jesus warned about False Prophets, and men dividing the Church and starting their own groups, this is clearly seen in Protestantism. Buddy you have already lost the debate, every last one of you "Protest-ants". We won the battle before you even stepped into it.

Obviously you need a history lesson:

Chronology of Christianity

Edited September 18, 2003 by Mc-Just†

[skuba steve]

i think i asked you about apples and oranges.

[Paladin D]

i think i asked you about apples and oranges.

Apples and Oranges can be a good combination, but you can't make Apple Pie with oranges mixed in it.

*is a lover of Apple Pie*

[MC Just]

i think i asked you about apples and oranges.

Oh those are apples alright, do you even read anything we post or are you here to just bash our Church? I'm not affraid to be a Sheep in wolves clothes, knowing that it take a wolf to beat a wolf.

[dUSt]

Your analogy doesn't work because it's assuming that the Church of today is teaching something different than the Church of day one. It isn't.

Or--to put it in your terms--the original orchard has been growing apples the whole time. About 1500 years after the apple orchard started, a few people decided they didn't like apples and started to plant oranges someplace else.

God bless.

[MC Just]

Your analogy doesn't work because it's assuming that the Church of today is teaching something different than the Church of day one. It isn't.

Or--to put it in your terms--the original orchard has been growing apples the whole time. About 1500 years after the apple orchard started, a few people decided they didn't like apples and started to plant oranges someplace else.

God bless.

Bump!

[Jake Huether]

i was talking to God on the way to work before and he gave me a picture...

Imagine there was an apple orchid.... this apple orchid grew the best apples in the world and that's all they did and had been doing for years...

now one day someone comes and tears up all the apple trees and plants orange trees so now the apple orchid grows oranges.

And the apple orchid happily grows oranges for many many years....

but then something happens

da da daaa daa...

Someone realises that the apple orchid should really be growing apples and so they plant apple trees in another place and begin to grow apples just like before because they want what was originally produced at the apple orchid. Apples.

But the workers from the original apple orchid that now grows oranges say,

"Your apples are not really apples, our orchid grows real apples and we can prove it because we can trace our orchid right back to the original apples. They are even growing from the same soil. Your apples can't be real apples because they can't be traced back to the original apples like ours can. And they should be orange anyway. red apples BLeH!"

Who is really growing apples?

Good thought Steve. But it doesn't reflect the Catholic Church.

If the "Apple Orchid" had documented what the apples looked like so that they could compare it with the Oranges that they now had, they would then be able to rightly say that they no longer were an apple orchid, but an orange orchid. Anyone could take and apple, place it next to an orang, and see that it isn't the same.

The Catholic Church NOT ONLY can trace it's origin to the Apostles, but we have the documentation (not to mention the guidance of the Holy Spirit, promised by Christ) to compare the past Teachings to the Present Teachings to make sure that they are the same... And they are!

If the Apple Orchid could pull a fruit from each generation, they would be able to see clearly when the apple all of a sudden became orange and round, the breaking point.

The Catholic Church can pull a "fruit" from each generation to and there is NO breaking point.

Now, to use your analogy...

Imagine there was an apple orchid... This apple orchid grew the best apples in the world adn that's all they did and had been doing for years (1500 years to be more presice)...

Now, quite frankly, throughout the decades, although the apples were the best in the world, and the apple orchid manual was absolutly perfect and untainted, there were a few sly individuals who were attendants. Some of these attendants tried to grow apples differently, some tried to withhold apples for themselves, others gave out apples freely. But nothing really came out of these situations because throughout the decades there had always been pacient customers (one such was an apple orchid customer named St. Francis of Assisi), who by their good conduct and advice were able to persuade these "sly" individuals to returning to the manual and growing and distributing apples as they should be.

Now one particular year, one of the apple orchid attendants started selling the apples for an unfair price (actually going against the rules of the apple orchid manual). So, one day, one of the regular customers, who was actually studying to be an apple orchid attendant, was enfuriated by this outrage. So he stabbed a 95 point thesis on the main apple tree, stating why apples needed to be sold at a fair price, as prescribed in the Orchid manual. Well, the manager of the orchid (given the authority by the Orchid Owner, who was out on leave) called the regular costomer to meet with him, but the customer was in such a huff, he refused to go! In fact, the customer then started to think that maybe apples weren't the best in the world. Rather than being pacient with the orchid, as were all the other customers up untill this time, he harbored his resentment. Enraged by the fact that no one would listen to him, he bagan to search for a way to make the change himself! He concluded that oranges MUST be the best!

So, with the knowlege that the customer had, as he had studied quite some time to be an apple orchid attendant, he decided to try his hand at his own orchid. Although he would produce oranges and distribute and grow them according to the apple manual. But then, since he harbored this resentment for the apple orchid, he decided to take a few of the pages out of the manual that were more specific to those darn apples. He wouldn't need those pages, as he would be now producing oranges. Within but a few years his franchise grew. People took to oranges like hotcakes! Not only were they softer and more easily swalowed, but they were (in their view) just as healthy as apples, and probably better tasting!

Now, in the mean time, the attendant that was selling apples at an unfair price finally stopped doing so. And the apple orchid continued to produce and distribut the same apples as it had always done.

500 years later...

Many more people, just like the customer before, had lost their taste for oranges, or thought that they could do better to match the original apple orchid. There were grape orchids and bannana orchids. All of the orchids attempted to re-produce what the apple orchid had always done. The oranges bannanas grapes lemons pears and kiwis were all very healthy! However, because they had left the apple orchid, they no loger were under the authority of the apple orchid manager - who knew what was best for the customers because he had been commissioned by the apple orchid owner who knew his customers BEST, and the apple orchid manual didn't really fit well, because it was intended for apples, not oranges and kiwis, etc. So, although the oranges and bananas and grapes were all healthy in one way or another, they could not match the apples produced at the original apple orchid. Only the apples had ALL the right nutrients to sustain the customers.

Something like that is more accurate...

[dUSt]

Wow. That is the best story about apples I've ever heard.

[baccc]

WOW :D :D :D

Mc-Just for President and Jake for Vice-President.

Have to be two of the best posts I've read!

[littleflower+JMJ]

*claps for jake and just's posts*

[MC Just]

WOW :D  :D  :D

Mc-Just for President and Jake for Vice-President.

Have to be two of the best posts I've read!

Thank You, Thank You!! All praised be to God.

[MC Just]

Wow!! Great Apple Story Jake!!

[littleflower+JMJ]

*jmj goes off to eat some applesauce*

[Jake Huether]

All for the Glory of God.

I'm just clay in the Potter's hands (and no, not Harry Potter ).