Update

[Fides_et_Ratio]

The associate pastor called me back today to discuss "my letter", and I'm trying really hard, but I am still not completely satisfied.

He tried to explain himself to me, but basically ended up saying that he was conditioning our parish to use the Children's Prayers during liturgies... he was "working up to including the children's responses". When I explained to him that it was not my understanding that using those prayers during Masses with no children was appropriate, he said that I was the first to ever say such a thing and that he would "take that into consideration" when he celebrates the Masses. I also that that by leaving out part of the prayer, he is, in essence, not completing it (although I didn't implicate him.. I think I said, "when a priest..."). And he just said that he felt that people "can sometimes get more out of the simplistic things" and that that's what he's aiming for.

He also remembered me right away. And said that after I left Mass the day I asked him which Eucharistic Prayer he used during Mass and got mad and left that "several of the other elderly ladies who had also attended Mass that day came up to [him] and said that they really liked the prayer." To which I responded that I didn't think it was about anyone's particular preferences or feelings, but more about obedience to the Church. And he said, "oh, of course... the great thing about are Catholic faith is that it is open and not closed out to one way of doing things". And then he went on to address some other things I talked about (so instead of harping on that last statement, I heard him out)...

As for the rest of his ad-libbing he said that priests are free to celebrate the liturgy and that it's "not so much about the words--which aren't set in concrete stone" but about the "spirit and center of the liturgy". And he asked me where I was getting my information... and I told him "off the Vatican website, or the USCCB site" and he asked what specificially I had read and I told him "Most of the Vatican 2 documents, the GIRM, and anything I had quoted in my letter, as well as a few other things". I was trying here to ask him some more about the Mass, but he kept refusing to answer me, and kept asking me questions, or saying, "Wow, well you are the first young person that I've ever seen who's shown such an interest in this, or had so much knowledge".

And I brought up a few other things that he again ignored-- I think they all pertained to "the celebration of the Mass the way the Church has laid it out.. in the Sacramentary, and in documents, i.e., the GIRM, Sacrosanctum Concilium, Redemptionis Sacramentum, etc." And he said, "Well, I think that there are bigger concerns to worry about." And went on to tell me this story about a Mass he'd been to where they were consecrating chips and soda.. and I said, "Yes, and surely if I would see such an abuse like consecrating invalid matter, I would write a letter and treat such an abuse with greater concern, but..." he cut me off and said, "That's exactly my point, there is just so much bigger stuff that is happening right now in the world, that we just need to worry more about that."

And then we just sort of ended the conversation, I think he could tell I was getting frustrated.

There was a bit more to it, but that's all I can remember... there was just so much that I wanted to say, "STOP, you're wrong!" and quote some document... but he kept emphasizing how the Catholic faith isn't about doing things just one way, and how the words are not concrete, and that the other Eucharistic Prayers can be used at ANY time (I think he completely ignored the USCCB quote I included in my letter, and reminded him of when we spoke), even the ones for children.

But I was just so angry and shocked that I couldn't respond properly to some of the things he said without getting myself into trouble.

I really wish he would've e-mailed me so I would've had written documentation... I have a feeling this is going to be a little harder than I thought. When I went to visit a priest who had been helpful when I first reconciled to the Church, he slipped and said, "Well, it's not like you're the first to notice these things, Jillian. They knew he did it at Saint Michael's and pretty soon everyone at Saint Cecilia would've caught on anyway." I really would like to write to the bishop.. but won't that look silly, writing from Europe?

Any comments? Especially on the way I handled the phone conversation.. I know I probably made lots of mistakes.

My parish festival is this weekend. I am hoping to find my pastor and talk to him.. I think I might better be able to listen to him on this situation.

I also leave for Europe Sunday (and the associate pastor knows this)... I have a feeling he's not going to change a thing, since I'm going to be away...

Maybe I'll write him a letter once a week asking how things are going?

[StColette]

oooh wow

[quote]"oh, of course... the great thing about are Catholic faith is that it is open and not closed out to one way of doing things". [/quote]

umm if there weren't set requirements within the Church the whole thing would be complete chaos. Standards set by Rome regarding the Celebration of Mass are to be adhered to not changed just to suit someone else's likes or whims.

[quote]"Well, I think that there are bigger concerns to worry about." [/quote]

No doubt there are bigger things that should be of concern, but the Liturgical abuses he is committing can lead to a whole lot more problems which in the end can escalate to huge problems. So it's better to correct these abuses now before they get completely out of hand.

In regards to you writing to the Bishop I say go right ahead. Just be sure to explain that you are a member at that parish and has witnessed Liturgical abuses.

Anyway those are just my thoughts.

God Bless,
Jennie

Edited August 27, 2004 by StColette

[phatcatholic]

well, he obviously doesn't think there's anything wrong w/ what he's doing. what did the head pastor say? i would see if there's anything he can do. if not, you have to write to the bishop. by the way, i see nothing wrong w/ writing him from Europe. i think it will show him how much this means to you.

i think you handled your conversation w/ the associate pastor just fine. you were respectful, but still get your point across and defended your stance. the fact that this guy has a history of abusing the liturgy tells me that there's not much effect you will have on him. so, you have to rely on the effect of others. this could be the head pastor, or the bishop, but it could also be other people writing to him too. maybe your youth minister could write a letter also.

note however that this issue is starting to rile me up to, so there may be a better response available of which my passion blinds me.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[p0lar_bear]

Send a letter to your pastor. You already sent a copy of the letter you sent to the associate pastor (right?), but this time address a letter to him. Include some of how the associate pastor responded, etc.

Don't write the bishop yet.

Also, some general advice on going to the bishop. You need to sit down and really consider whether this is something worth "dying in the ditch" over. Are the changes significant enough that you think they really need to be brought to the attention of the bishop or is this nit-picking? (I'm not saying either way, it's something you have to decide). The bishop is a very busy man; make sure you are respecting his time.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I saw my pastor at our parish festival tonight and asked if I could speak with him for a few minutes after he celebrates the Mass this weekend (but he's doing the 9:30am Sunday... and I leave for Europe that afternoon.. so it has to be a quick meeting!)

I am going to ask him what he thought of my letter to the associate pastor, and then discuss with him how the associate pastor responded. Since he is my pastor, I will do what he tells me to do (regarding the bishop, because I decided that I will ask him-- so there's no surprises for him). But I will assure him of my seriousness in the matter. I can not and will not let this new pastor confuse the parishoners of my parish (our parish isn't so high on the "catholic" end.. most are 'cafeteria catholics' at best) even further by acting as though everything is up for interpretation and subject to altercations by anyone. I can leave his ad-libbing out of everything (as, I think I do get nit-picky about that even though it is a problem), but the Eucharistic Prayer is something I refuse to back down on when I am fully confident that I am siding with the Church.

I spoke with one priest (not my pastor, but still in the same diocese a few cites away) about this matter and he encouraged me in this and said that it is my "right" to attend a faithfully and properly celebrated Liturgy. And he told me that it would be a little hard, and that I'm going to meet with alot of opposition as my diocese isn't one to "get things stirred up", but it does need a wake-up call. We need priests who are excited and willing to celebrate the Sared Liturgy with nothing less than dignity and reverence that it demands. And they sometimes need to be reminded of that. (paraphrasing his words).

Edited August 27, 2004 by Fides_et_Ratio

[toledo_jesus]

don't you love it when they pat you on the head and explain why you're just so silly to be questioning them?

[StColette]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Aug 29 2004, 05:29 PM'] don't you love it when they pat you on the head and explain why you're just so silly to be questioning them? [/quote]
That's so irritating