EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Which one are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 27 2004, 06:40 PM'] And besides.. have you ever seen a woman in clerics... :ph34r: ... .... :deformed: [/quote] yes! and its SCARY it was a lutheran minster i think, so she had on full priesty dress, collar and all, and i did a double take! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='thedude' date='Aug 27 2004, 08:03 PM'] What gets me is that they think the only reason women can't be priests is that there is some close-minded sexist sitting on the Chair of Peter. [/quote] CLEARLY they have not read JPII's Theology of the Body which is VERY pro-woman trust me, the Pope is a big fan of girls, in a beautiful, holy, wonderful way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [quote name='drewmeister2' date='Aug 30 2004, 06:07 PM'] I have heard from my theology teacher that the process for female deacons is moving pretty quickly, does that mean, if the document Inter Insigniores isn't infallible, that we may one day have female priests? Just some thoughts. God bless! [/quote] wait a sec, whats this about women deacons?? i've heard lots of people say that there were women deacons in the bible (Acts) but have always doubted this and never knew where to look. is this true that women will be permitted to do this soon?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 [b]Regarding Deaconesses[/b] The only mention of deaconesses in the New Testament is Romans 16:1-2, in which St. Paul affirms the service of Phoebe. In the early Church, there is frequent mention of deaconesses in the East, and also in the West after the fifth century. There is no evidence of deaconesses of possessing the ordained, sacramental power of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, even though sometimes they were referred to as “ordained.” The prime duty of deaconesses was to assist at the Baptism of women, which in ancient times was primarily done by immersion and included several ceremonies in which the female candidate was less-than-fully-robed: thus the propriety of having deaconesses assist vs. male ministers. As aspersion-sprinkling gradually replaced immersion, the importance of the office of deaconess diminished, affirming that assistance at Baptism was indeed the principal duty of deaconesses. Deaconesses also helped with the pastoral administration of women in Christian communities. There is no record of the office of deaconesses being exercised after the beginning of the 11th century in the West, although the office continued for several centuries afterward in the Eastern Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) affirms that only men can receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders (nos.1577-80). Some argue that women could be ordained deaconesses, meaning reception of Holy Orders at that level, but not ordained priests. This argument fails to recognize that it is theologically impossible for women to be priests, or exercise Holy Orders in any sense, and that only a changeable discipline, i.e., celibacy, prevents deacons from becoming priests. Because of ongoing debate regarding women serving as ordained deacons, the Congregations for the Doctrine of the Faith, Divine Worship, and the Clergy issued a “notification” on the issue in September 2001. The Pope specifically approved the document prior to publication. The complete text of the notification follows: [quote]1.Our offices have received from several countries signs of courses that are being planned or underway, directly or indirectly aimed at the diaconal ordination of women. Thus are born hopes which are lacking a solid doctrinal foundation and which can generate pastoral disorientation. 2. Since ecclesial ordination does not foresee such an ordination, it is not licit to enact initiatives which, in some way, aim to prepare candidates for diaconal ordination. 3.The authentic promotion of women in the Church, in conformity with the constant ecclesial magisterium, with special reference to (the magisterium) of his Holiness John Paul II, opens other ample prospectives of service and collaboration. 4. The undersigned Congregations—within the sphere of their proper authority—thus turn to the individual ordinaries, asking them to explain (this) to their own faithful and to diligently apply the above-mentioned directives.[/quote] Vatican officials continue to note that there are many other ways in which the Church can promote the dignity of women and their participation in the Church without ordaining women deacons. As CWNews.com noted, “There has been substantial debate among Catholic historians and theologians as to whether women were ordained as deacons in the past. A Vatican commission has been studying the question of female deacons for seven years, and is expected to conclude that study later this year.” The results of this study were issued in October of 2002. According to Fr. Georges Cottier, O.P., the General Secretary of the international Theological Commission, the study presented two primary considerations. First, the deaconesses mentioned in the early traditions of the Church cannot be equated to ordained deacons. This conclusion was drawn from the distinction in both the rite of institution and the role of deaconesses as opposed to ordained deacons. Second, the Commission emphasized the unity of the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders. This unity and the Church’s infallible statements on reserving priestly ordination to men alone seems to preclude the possibility of ordaining women as deaconesses. While the results of this study (done at the request of the CDF) are significant, Fr. Cottier does point out that it does not constitute and official statement of the Magisterium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 [quote name='drewmeister2' date='Aug 30 2004, 08:07 PM'] Joe, Good point, but is the Inter Insigniores infallible? That is what I am still unsure on.... If it isn't, then the Church could then say something else later on, and change its position on female Priests. Not everything is infallible the Church says, keep in mind. Also, I am not debating the issue, but rather simply curious about what people have to say. I don't think women should be priests, I agree. But what do others have to say? I have heard from my theology teacher that the process for female deacons is moving pretty quickly, does that mean, if the document Inter Insigniores isn't infallible, that we may one day have female priests? Just some thoughts. God bless! [/quote] It doesn't matter what your theology teacher says, he or she is not the Living Magisterium. Did you teacher sign the mandatum? If he or she did not, then they are hardly in a position to be considered reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:19 PM'] [b]Regarding Deaconesses[/b] [/quote] the rumors are true, polar bear you ARE amazing. as for the "deaconess" issue, all i can say is "whew" :thumb: i knew it was just heterodox propaganda! sidenote: the role of women deacons in the past, clearly not sacramental, is something that women are still allowed to perform today, correct? they just aren't called that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Hey, if it were up to me, there would be women as priests. I see no reason why they [i]can't[/i] be. Problem is, it's not up to me. Not in the slightest. It's not even up to the Roman Pontiff, becaus God has made His decision and that is final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Seriously, who are these people voting "yes" and "possibly"? Can you give any justification for your votes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 [quote name='XIX' date='Sep 2 2004, 07:52 AM'] Hey, if it were up to me, there would be women as priests. I see no reason why they [i]can't[/i] be. Problem is, it's not up to me. Not in the slightest. It's not even up to the Roman Pontiff, becaus God has made His decision and that is final. [/quote] Just a clarification... It is not even up to the Roman Pontiff, the Church has no authority in the matter, for it is the office of Christ... Seriously the quote from the Pope that citeted is infalliable and it says that. Go to page one of this thread and read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 [quote name='XIX' date='Sep 2 2004, 07:52 AM'] Hey, if it were up to me, there would be women as priests. I see no reason why they [i]can't[/i] be. Problem is, it's not up to me. Not in the slightest. It's not even up to the Roman Pontiff, becaus God has made His decision and that is final. [/quote] bro, if you don't see any reason why they can't be, then you may need to read some of those articles that Cure and I have posted. actually, go ahead and read all of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 2 2004, 01:52 PM'] Just a clarification... It is not even up to the Roman Pontiff, the Church has no authority in the matter, [/quote] Umm...isn't that what XIX said?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 [quote name='XIX' date='Sep 2 2004, 07:52 AM'] Hey, if it were up to me, there would be women as priests. I see no reason why they [i]can't[/i] be. Problem is, it's not up to me. Not in the slightest. It's not even up to the Roman Pontiff, becaus God has made His decision and that is final. [/quote] uM I humbly ask that people not skip what I post when it is from the Pope... [quote name='"John Paul II 'Ordinatio Sacerdotalis' (Priestly Ordination)"'] "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) [b]I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."[/b] [/quote] That quote is infalliable! Any how, the descision is not arbitrary, it has to do alot with the Theology of the Body, and what it means to be a man and woman, not that this makes men superior, as the fullness of humanity is found in the meaning of woman... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewmeister2 Posted September 3, 2004 Author Share Posted September 3, 2004 Theotokos, Be careful when you say the quote is infallible. There are only two things that have been officially declared as infallible, and that is the doctrine on the Assumption and Immaculate Conception. And that is it. Please keep that in mind. Although the Church is 99.9% unlikely going to change their stance on female priests, it isn't infallible. God bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 [quote name='drewmeister2' date='Sep 3 2004, 05:58 PM'] Theotokos, Be careful when you say the quote is infallible. There are only two things that have been officially declared as infallible, and that is the doctrine on the Assumption and Immaculate Conception. And that is it. Please keep that in mind. Although the Church is 99.9% unlikely going to change their stance on female priests, it isn't infallible. God bless! [/quote] FYI : the Pope can be infalliable even when he does not speak ex cathedra (those w things you're referring to are ex cathedra statements). anytime he speaks as pontiff, from the chair of Peter, on faith and morals, in communion with the bishops, he is infalliable. therefore, so is that quote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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