Being Re-justified Hundreds Of Times

[ICTHUS]

Okay, perhaps this is going to sound weird, but this is something I never understood about Roman Catholicism.

How do you lose your 'grace of justification' (since that is what mortal sin is, right?) and then gain it back again, seemingly as if it were a coat that you put on and off as you please? And why does it come from works (i.e. from doing penance, which is a work). Is it really that easy to lose your salvation? *bang* one dirty thought and it's off to Hell with you?

[Laudate_Dominum]

hehe, that's a phunny way of putting it.

I don't like the coat analogy. I would describe it as killing the supernatural organism. Mortal sin is a spiritual death because you are rejecting the life of God within you and choosing some vanity or base pleasure over the True and Living God.

Maybe you could describe a habitual mortal sinner as one who is repeatedly slamming the door in God's face.

This stuff is fo' real bro.

[Laudate_Dominum]

oh, and the absolution doesn't come from the penance, it comes from Christ ultimately through the priestly ministry. Penitence is a necessary disposition for a true penitent (obviously), so an outward penance is a sign of that, but no one (that I've ever meant) thinks that saying the Our Fathers or whatever merits the remission of sins or something.

piece.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 25 2004, 07:51 PM'] Okay, perhaps this is going to sound weird, but this is something I never understood about Roman Catholicism.

How do you lose your 'grace of justification' (since that is what mortal sin is, right?) and then gain it back again, seemingly as if it were a coat that you put on and off as you please? And why does it come from works (i.e. from doing penance, which is a work). Is it really that easy to lose your salvation? *bang* one dirty thought and it's off to Hell with you? [/quote]
ICTHUS, justification, like life itself, has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Unless you wish to argue for the "once saved always saved" position. So, even if a man doesn't fall into a state of mortal sin, he is constantly being infused with God's uncreated life and energy, and is being drawn closer and closer to God throughout his life. Salvation is a process, it is not simply a one time juridical act. ICTHUS, you still seem to think that justification is something external to man, but it is not, it is an internal transformation, it is a gift of supernatural life, and if a man sins mortally, he can kill that new life. God of course can restore it again, but it's not a piece of clothing; instead, it is a spiritual life that exceeds man's nature.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 26, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 25 2004, 07:51 PM'] And why does it come from works (i.e. from doing penance, which is a work). Is it really that easy to lose your salvation? *bang* one dirty thought and it's off to Hell with you? [/quote]
ICTHUS, can a man be saved if he never repents of his sins? Can a man commit adultery with impunity and be saved?

[ironmonk]

It's a shame that you never studied Catholic Church teachings when you claimed you were Catholic....

It's very clear....


[b]Matthew 9:8[/b]
But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

[i]First who are the men in the above verse?

Second, what is the authority given?

Answer:[/i]

[b]Matthew 9:6[/b]
"[color=red]But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins[/color]"--then He *said to the paralytic, "[color=red]Get up, pick up your bed and go home.[/color]"




[b]St. John 20:23[/b] [color=red]Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained[/color]."


The disciples could forgive sins, disciples can make disciples, new disciples can forgive sins... this is called Apostlic Succession.


[b]Phil. 2:12 [/b]
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, [u][b]work out your salvation with fear and trembling.[/b][/u]


Paul said "Work out your salvation" - really... it's quite clear.


[b]Luke 8:13[/b][color=red]Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. [/color]


Believe for a time and fall away.


"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).


As for the fathers...
ACTUALLY READ THESE AND LOOK THEM UP....


[b]The Didache[/b]


"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).


[b]The Letter of Barnabas[/b]


"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).


[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]


"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).


[b]Irenaeus[/b]


"[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).


[b]Tertullian[/b]


"[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness" (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).


[b]Hippolytus[/b]


"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).


[b]Origen[/b]


"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).


[b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b]


"The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).

"Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).

"[S]inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]" (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).

"And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given" (ibid., 51[55]:20).

"But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]" (ibid., 51[55]:22).


[b]Aphraahat the Persian Sage[/b]


"You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us" (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).


[b]Basil the Great[/b]


"It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles" (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).


[b]John Chrysostom[/b]


"Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).


[b]Ambrose of Milan[/b]


"For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only" (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).


[b]Jerome[/b]


"If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him" (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).

"We read in Leviticus about lepers, where they are ordered to show themselves to the priests, and if they have leprosy, then they are to be declared unclean by the priest. . . . Just as in the Old Testament the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament the bishop or presbyter binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who is to be loosed" (Commentary on Matthew 3:16:19 [A.D. 398]).


[b]Augustine[/b]


"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).








Again, if you truly cannot understand the above and you still deny the above, then if you really believe in God, pray for your blinders to be removed.

Here is a great prayer...

"O God, I humbly beseech thee to teach me thy true religion, that leads to everlasting happiness, through Jesus Christ thy Son, our Lord. Amen."




God Bless,
ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 25 2004, 10:09 PM'] ICTHUS, can a man be saved if he never repents of his sins? Can a man commit adultery with impunity and be saved? [/quote]
No, of course not. Im not saying you dont need to repent...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 25 2004, 08:25 PM'] No, of course not. Im not saying you dont need to repent... [/quote]
ICTHUS, thanks for refuting the [i]sola fide[/i] doctrine. Clearly, repentance is required if a man is to be justified by grace through faith, for otherwise his faith is dead and cannot justify him at all. Grace brings man to repentance, grace empowers man to make an act of faith in Christ, grace gives man hope in Christ for his salvation, and grace gives man the love of God. No man can commit mortal sins and have God's life and energy inside of him, for such a man is spiritually dead.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 25 2004, 10:42 PM'] ICTHUS, thanks for refuting the [i]sola fide[/i] doctrine. Clearly, repentance is required if a man is to be justified by grace through faith, for otherwise his faith is dead and cannot justify him at all. Grace brings man to repentance, grace empowers man to make an act of faith in Christ, grace gives man hope in Christ for his salvation, and grace gives man the love of God. No man can commit mortal sins and have God's life and energy inside of him, for such a man is spiritually dead. [/quote]
We don't claim that faith is alone - we claim that it is faith alone that justifies. Of course faith brings about death to sin and genuine metanoia...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 25 2004, 10:51 PM'] Okay, perhaps this is going to sound weird, but this is something I never understood about Roman Catholicism.

How do you lose your 'grace of justification' (since that is what mortal sin is, right?) and then gain it back again, seemingly as if it were a coat that you put on and off as you please? And why does it come from works (i.e. from doing penance, which is a work). Is it really that easy to lose your salvation? *bang* one dirty thought and it's off to Hell with you? [/quote]
The coat analogy doesn't really work. It's more like taking off your coat and asking God to put it back on you. God, knowing all, will put it back on you if you really want back on you. Also, you actually have to remove the coat, which means that you have to intend to and you have to physically try to. If the coat falls off (comparable to a dirty thought that just pops into your head...it's a temptation, not a sin until you entertain the thought), it doesn't count.

As for penance, it is comparable to thanking God for putting your coat back on. When you are absolved, before penance, your coat is back on. Penance is to help with the burden of attachment to sinful inclinations. Penance is like thanking God for the effort He took in putting your coat back on.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]Being Re-justified Hundreds Of Times, I don't get it...[/b][/quote]

God is a mystery, His ways are above ours, why understand? Have faith.

[Dave]

Jason, where ya been? I'd been wondering about you!

[Brother Adam]

Ironmonk gave a great post. I'd like to see ICTHUS actually respond to teh scriptures and Early Fathers presented.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Dave' date='Aug 26 2004, 09:30 PM'] Jason, where ya been? I'd been wondering about you! [/quote]
Busy,

I'll try to be on more.

Thanks for wondering! Take care bro. I'll talk to ya soon
Peace of Christ
Jason

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 26 2004, 05:57 PM'] We don't claim that faith is alone - we claim that it is faith alone that justifies. Of course faith brings about death to sin and genuine metanoia... [/quote]
Oh but you are wrong, the Reformers did claim that faith was alone, but then on occasion, when it served their purpose, they would admit that other things were present; but regardless, scripture is clear on this, faith alone cannot justify a man. [cf. James 2] Faith must be living, it must be formed by charity, or it is dead.

Repentance ([i]metanoia[/i]), which is a graced preparation for justification, logically precedes the act of faith. Try all you will, you cannot reduce every concept to faith, because even at the level of language, it is impossible.

God bless,
Todd