Girm Changes.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Since I've been such a troublemaker lately, I egged my old youth minister into asking the pastor what exactly the specific changes for our diocese were going to be from the GIRM (the bishop.. or rather, the "liturgy committe" just recently finished up "interpreting" it and now it's ready to be implemented..."soon").

Anyhow, he said that there are only 3 'changes'. The first being standing at the "pray brethren" rather than after it, the second being the posture during reception of the Eucharist (standing, with a bow before receiving) ,and the third (the one I'm having a problem with) is that we are supposed to begin using the orans position while praying the 'Our Father'!

I read the GIRM when it came out, and I don't remember any mention of such a posture for the laity. And our new associate pastor (the one I wrote the letter to... I talk about it with him on Friday) has begun informing everyone to "hold hands" as they pray. I have never been a fan of holding hands at this point in the Mass. But nor do I feel the orans position is an appropriate gesture for the laity during this time.

Any ideas? (Man, the pastor is going to have a heart-attack over me and all my liturgical questions... he's been having to field them all since my SD is gone, and is definitely surprised.)

I guess, there's not much I can do, other than write a letter to the bishop. But all the priests in the diocese have already been informed of these "changes"... so... now what?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

and I got this off of Zenit.org:

"The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. [u]The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes[/u], however, and was dropped from the agenda. "

[phatcatholic]

hmmm, maybe i'm wierd, but here is how i have always prayed the Our Father during Church. i ususally hold hands. if the person next to me does not extend their hand for me to hold then i guess i do something similar to the orans position (it depends on how one defines this position). if it means making a Y shape w/ your body, then i definition don't do that. mine is more casual, w/ my elbows to my side and my forarms extended out, my hands palm up, a little above my waist. after the priest speaks and we begin to say "for the kingdom, the power, and the glory our yours now and forever" i raise my hands slightly to a little below my shoulders.

that's how my church has always done it for as long as i can remember. there's nothing wrong w/ that is there?

[p0lar_bear]

Actually, there is no posture provided for the congregation during the Lord's Prayer. Holding hands is not encouraged, but it is not exactly forbidden either. What has been stated is that holding hands cannot be initiated by the priest and it cannot take the place of the Sign of Peace. According the the Committe on the Liturgy's Q&A page

[quote]The Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy expressed a strong preference for the orans gesture over the holding of hands since the focus of the Lord’s Prayer is a prayer to the Father and not primarily an expression of community and fellowship[/quote]

phatcatholic--the position you have when the person next to you doesn't hold your hand is the orans position.

[phatcatholic]

ahhh, cool cool. it looks like since holding hands does not replace the sign of peace in my church that i'm ok

[kateri05]

what about in parishes where the priest DOES ask that everyone do that and people grab your hand?

i have always been taught the orans position as well, or holding hands with family/friends that you have come with but in my new diocese, poeple actually grab your hands! i'm not totally comfortable withit but i don't want to seem rude or uncharitable, its just that its hard for me to focus on the prayer and the eucharist when i'm holding strangers hands

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 26 2004, 01:19 PM'] What has been stated is that holding hands cannot be initiated by the priest and it cannot take the place of the Sign of Peace. [/quote]
can you provide these statements? where can i find them?

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 26 2004, 04:54 PM'] can you provide these statements? where can i find them? [/quote]
[quote name='Notitiae' date=' vol. 11 (1975), p.226; reprinted in Documents on the Liturgy (DOL) 1502, n. R29'][i]Query[/i]: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable?

[i]Reply[/i]: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation— “Let us offer each other the sign of peace”—should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: The sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated. [/quote]

Saying the gesture is "introduced spontaneously on personal initiative," indicates that it is not to be imposed upon the faithful, which would seem to preclude the priest initiating the gesture.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 26 2004, 02:19 PM'] Actually, there is no posture provided for the congregation during the Lord's Prayer. Holding hands is not encouraged, but it is not exactly forbidden either. What has been stated is that holding hands cannot be initiated by the priest and it cannot take the place of the Sign of Peace. According the the Committe on the Liturgy's Q&A page



phatcatholic--the position you have when the person next to you doesn't hold your hand is the orans position. [/quote]
Did you catch my second post?

(from Zenit.org)

"The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The [b]proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes[/b], however, and was dropped from the agenda. "

[p0lar_bear]

I did see your second post. I didn't put that quote in there as evidence of a norm but rather as reasoning for why some prefer the posture.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 26 2004, 08:42 PM'] I did see your second post. I didn't put that quote in there as evidence of a norm but rather as reasoning for why some prefer the posture. [/quote]
Oh okay, I understand, I think..

So then, is prescribing the orans posture as the official posture of the laity permissible? If this indeed came from the bishop, does he have the right to prescribe such a gesture into the Mass?

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 26 2004, 10:01 PM'] Oh okay, I understand, I think..

So then, is prescribing the orans posture as the official posture of the laity permissible? If this indeed came from the bishop, does he have the right to prescribe such a gesture into the Mass? [/quote]
I believe so, but I'm not entirely sure. I don't know of any bishop who as done that though...

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 27 2004, 10:40 AM'] I believe so, but I'm not entirely sure. I don't know of any bishop who as done that though... [/quote]
According to my pastor, my bishop has.

I might put in a call to the diocesan office today and ask.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 27 2004, 11:57 AM'] According to my pastor, my bishop has.

I might put in a call to the diocesan office today and ask. [/quote]
If your bishop has proscribed this, then you need to follow it.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 27 2004, 11:14 AM'] If your bishop has proscribed this, then you need to follow it. [/quote]
Nothing has been "implemented" yet, but I heard that it's going to be. If it is, of course I will obey the bishop.


But my question was whether or not this was something he is free to introduce into the Mass? Especially in light of the USCCB, and every other statement about it I can find. In the "American Adaptations to the GIRM", they decided AGAINST using the orans position in an effort to rid people of holding hands.

If the bishop did okay this, it seems to me as though he would be ok-ing something against the norm.