follow_the_pelican Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Words of wisdom joe...thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 That would be a nifty response, but you forget to address the issue. Yes we aren't tempted beyond what we can resist, then God would not be protecting our free will. However, we have more potential to be tempted, and to be tempted in a greater way because we have the sacraments. Anyone who denies this says that we are no closer to God than anyone else, and that we cannot possibly hold more of the Truth , because logically, we'd be more against the Devil, and so he'd look for our fall in a greater why. You say this is pointless, but I addressed all the point, and in all fairness, anyone who may ever start talking with someone else about this subject may remember this one day. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote] Yes we aren't tempted beyond what we can resist, then God would not be protecting our free will.[/quote] God wouldnt allow the devil to give us temptation that we couldnt resist it. How does this contradict our free will? [quote] Anyone who denies this says that we are no closer to God than anyone else, and that we cannot possibly hold more of the Truth , because logically, we'd be more against the Devil, and so he'd look for our fall in a greater why.[/quote] We could be closer to God because of the sacraments but determining the state of your sould would determine your temptations. God would allow stronger temptations for stronger souls, the more you're able to avoid temptation, the more you are able to follow Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote name='musturde' date='Sep 4 2004, 02:29 PM'] God wouldnt allow the devil to give us temptation that we couldnt resist it. How does this contradict our free will? We could be closer to God because of the sacraments but determining the state of your sould would determine your temptations. God would allow stronger temptations for stronger souls, the more you're able to avoid temptation, the more you are able to follow Christ. [/quote] That first one, I was referring to a contradiction, but indeed recognizing the connection. You could say that yes, the state of your soul matters. When I speak of a Protestant and a Catholic, I refer to both who practice their Faith (faith in the Protestant's case), and have done so for the same amount of time. The Catholic will always be a greater target for the devil. Relativly speaking, neither the Protestant nor the Catholic can be tempted in such a way as they cannot say no, so relativly they are equal. In actuality however, the Catholic has much more room to refuse much more temptation than does the Protestant (because of the sacraments). So basically, you are arguing for the relative equality, and I was argueing for the actual inequality. Relativly speaking, you are right. In actuality your point holds no value. Actuality holds a greater precedence over relativity. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 4 2004, 06:22 PM'] In actuality however, the Catholic has much more room to refuse much more temptation than does the Protestant (because of the sacraments). [/quote] and this is what the most important thing that divides us and our seperated brothers and sisters........I mean, I have a scapular to help me resist temptation. A visual and physcial reminder to resist temptation as well as the power and graces from the sacraments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.R.D Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 yall say "i dnt find the whole thug thig true".... but its true The Tatt With the hands foled into prayer position its mean "R.I.P to the homies no longer here" i know cause my dad, uncles, and cousins hve the same tatts..... so the whole thug thing is true........ jst to tell ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='jmjtina' date='Sep 4 2004, 07:43 PM'] and this is what the most important thing that divides us and our seperated brothers and sisters........I mean, I have a scapular to help me resist temptation. A visual and physcial reminder to resist temptation as well as the power and graces from the sacraments. [/quote] But in all this, that gives the devil more room to tempt us. You see, in actuality he has more room to. Relativly, it's the same. I think that was my point. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 lol I dont think there's much of a difference from ur post and mine... are there still things we're not agrreing to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Someone could also say that since prots dont have the sacraments as shields against the devil, then it'd be easier to be teased by him. Why would he tempt us more if we recieve the sacraments? It gets us closer to God and makes us stronger against his attempts to temp us. This would make the protestant probably more prone to being weak. <--- I just proposed another view and forgot what my orriginal one is. It's 8 am.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 after you post, u wanna close this? I dont exactly think this makes our prot brothers happy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FabdaEclectic Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 (edited) I don't think many of you have a clue about what real truth is. What I see is a lot of talk about "tools" you have been given that protestants haven't - sacraments, etc. These are your "truths". However, I see you all using these tools to bring you "closer to Christ". Let me give you an analogy for a minute. If I want to get closer to a girl, I draw near to her directly. I don't use other things to get to know her. I don't speak to her friends and petition them to help me know her. I pick up the phone and call her. I drive to her house and visit with her. I take her to dinner. Nothing beats direct conversation. Same with Jesus. Who are Catholics to say I don't know Jesus as well as you do? Who's to say my life isn't a struggle as well? Who's to say that I don't work out my salvation with fear and trembling. It's funny, but it just hit me the other day about how differently we all think...so I'll explain: [b][u]The Catholic's View[/b][/u] - I want to be a major league pitcher. So I get online and I order tapes. I pour through those tapes. I watch baseball games and I study what I see on the TV. I go to the library and I pour through books. I read every one. Then I throw in my back yard to a pitch back machine. I do the same routine every day. When I struggle, I go back to my tapes and books and see where I went wrong. Then I go out and try to pitch a game. [b][u]Fab's View[/b][/u] - I want to be a major league pitcher. So I call up Kerry Wood to help me. I go out on the mound and I pitch with him. I study his throws while watching him pitch on the mound. I take notes from him. I talk to him about his technique. When I struggle, I ask him to show me how to do it right. Then I try to duplicate it. I face a different major league batter every day. Then I go out and try to pitch a game. But I don't have the whole truth....ahhh...I see... But there is no jew or gentile anymore. That means I have just as much of a right to enter into his presence as you do. But you are all too closed minded and doctrine driven to see things in perspective. All you see is, I don't have the sacraments, saints, rosary or all that other jazz, so I'm ignorant of the truth. These are the things that bring absolute truth, right? I thought the holy spirit did that for me? ....but in your response about how they help you get closer? Go back to my analogy. Truth is absolute. Not objective. Either you have the complete truth or I do. That is the debate. But you all are debating about that debate, and arguing about a point that has yet to be proven. I've seen posts about how you all wish to be a better "Catholic", yet none of you speak about how you strive to be a "better man of God" or more "christ like". So what is it? My goal is not to be a better "protestant". My goal is to be a better man of God. I don't drink, smoke or carouse. But, I have yet to be at a Catholic church service without seeing a Keg on the premises. But it's all good as long as you see a priest afterwards. Now, you tell me what the truth lies. So many of you speak on how you have the absolute truth. Yet, I speak truth myself. But because I'm not Catholic, you reject my "truth"...even though everything that I say, Mr. Spock himself would call it perfectly logical. So many of you desire to be closer with the Lord, and I love you for it....apart from your doctrine, I will see you in heaven....bet on it folks. But you've been decieved in so many ways....yet none of you see it. You rely on the tools rather than the tool maker, and defend those tools rather than defend he who made them. My goal is to be completely like Jesus himself. I feel that the only thing I need is his holy spirit and his word. The holy spirit who guides me into all truth. Not he who guides me towards a wafer or a statue. He who guides me to TRUTH. Although many of us here have agreed to disagree, I don't wish to stand back and watch as many of you post how you know so much about protestants' lifestyles and struggles - yet clearly know so little. I'm not a heart surgeon, so I don't post how stupid heart surgeons are. I'd advise you to do the same, because it makes several of you look like geniuses who do nothing but pass judgement. In closing, Michael, I see your viewpoint and how you defend what you believe. That's an honorable trait - being able to relay a point. However, your spirit is one of arrogance and brash cockiness. You really need to hone your people skills in a tremendous way and take it down a notch. You are not kind in your biased views and you turn people off. Although you know clearly how to present your point, you present it in a way that makes you appear self-righteous....and in my opinion, you come off as the epitome of a Pharisee. I will pray for you. Not that you become a better Catholic, but you become Christ-like in your attitude, views and life. I'm sure you'll respond in a way that suits your personality. If so, that will only tell me and the rest who post here that your heart is not fertile nor are you open to anything. If you've been given complete truth, then you don't need any teaching or correction, right? I'll speak no more on this topic, and won't post here on Phatmass again. Dust, Indeed and Pontifex will always be "my boys". I love them dearly and do not judge them in any way. We have agreed to disagree. I only wish to advise you all....stop trying to become better "Catholics"....and start trying to become better representatives of the most high God. Because in HIM will you only find absolute truth. Fab Edited September 5, 2004 by FabdaEclectic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='FabdaEclectic' date='Sep 5 2004, 09:53 AM'] I don't think many of you have a clue about what real truth is. What I see is a lot of talk about "tools" you have been given that protestants haven't - sacraments, etc. These are your "truths". However, I see you all using these tools to bring you "closer to Christ". Let me give you an analogy for a minute. If I want to get closer to a girl, I draw near to her directly. I don't use other things to get to know her. I don't speak to her friends and petition them to help me know her. I pick up the phone and call her. I drive to her house and visit with her. I take her to dinner. Nothing beats direct conversation. Same with Jesus. Who are Catholics to say I don't know Jesus as well as you do? Who's to say my life isn't a struggle as well? Who's to say that I don't work out my salvation with fear and trembling. It's funny, but it just hit me the other day about how differently we all think...so I'll explain: [b][u]The Catholic's View[/b][/u] - I want to be a major league pitcher. So I get online and I order tapes. I pour through those tapes. I watch baseball games and I study what I see on the TV. I go to the library and I pour through books. I read every one. Then I throw in my back yard to a pitch back machine. I do the same routine every day. When I struggle, I go back to my tapes and books and see where I went wrong. Then I go out and try to pitch a game. [b][u]Fab's View[/b][/u] - I want to be a major league pitcher. So I call up Kerry Wood and Mark Prior to help me. I go out on the mound and I pitch with them. I study their throws while watching them pitch on the mound. I take notes from them. I talk to them about their technique. When I struggle, I ask them to show me how to do it right. Then I try to duplicate it. I face a different major league batter every day. Then I go out and try to pitch a game. But I don't have the whole truth....ahhh...I see... But there is no jew or gentile anymore. That means I have just as much of a right to enter into his presence as you do. But you are all too closed minded and doctrine driven to see things in perspective. All you see is, I don't have the sacraments, saints, rosary or all that other jazz, so I'm ignorant of the truth. These are the things that bring absolute truth, right? I thought the holy spirit did that for me? ....but in your response about how they help you get closer? Go back to my analogy. Truth is absolute. Not objective. Either you have the complete truth or I do. That is the debate. But you all are debating about that debate, and arguing about a point that has yet to be proven. I've seen posts about how you all wish to be a better "Catholic", yet none of you speak about how you strive to be a "better man of God" or more "christ like". So what is it? My goal is not to be a better "protestant". My goal is to be a better man of God. I don't drink, smoke or carouse. But, I have yet to be at a Catholic church service without seeing a Keg on the premises. But it's all good as long as you see a priest afterwards. Now, you tell me what the truth lies. So many of you speak on how you have the absolute truth. Yet, I speak truth myself. But because I'm not Catholic, you reject my "truth"...even though everything that I say, Mr. Spock himself would call it perfectly logical. So many of you desire to be closer with the Lord, and I love you for it....apart from your doctrine, I will see you in heaven....bet on it folks. But you've been decieved in so many ways....yet none of you see it. You rely on the tools rather than the tool maker, and defend those tools rather than defend he who made them. My goal is to be completely like Jesus himself. I feel that the only thing I need is his holy spirit and his word. The holy spirit who guides me into all truth. Not he who guides me towards a wafer or a statue. He who guides me to TRUTH. Although many of us here have agreed to disagree, I don't wish to stand back and watch as many of you post how you know so much about protestants' lifestyles and struggles - yet clearly know so little. I'm not a heart surgeon, so I don't post how stupid heart surgeons are. I'd advise you to do the same, because it makes several of you look like geniuses who do nothing but pass judgement. In closing, Michael, I see your viewpoint and how you defend what you believe. That's an honorable trait - being able to relay a point. However, your spirit is one of arrogance and brash cockiness. You really need to hone your people skills in a tremendous way and take it down a notch. You are not kind in your biased views and you turn people off. Although you know clearly how to present your point, you present it in a way that makes you appear self-righteous....and in my opinion, you come off as the epitome of a Pharisee. I will pray for you. Not that you become a better Catholic, but you become Christ-like in your attitude, views and life. I'm sure you'll respond in a way that suits your personality. If so, that will only tell me and the rest who post here that your heart is not fertile nor are you open to anything. If you've been given complete truth, then you don't need any teaching or correction, right? I'll speak no more on this topic, and won't post here on Phatmass again. Dust, Indeed and Pontifex will always be "my boys". I love them dearly and do not judge them in any way. We have agreed to disagree. I only wish to advise you all....stop trying to become better "Catholics"....and start trying to become better representatives of the most high God. Because in HIM will you only find absolute truth. Fab [/quote] hey fab, im glad u expressed ur views... "If I want to get closer to a girl, I draw near to her directly. I don't use other things to get to know her. I don't speak to her friends and petition them to help me know her. I pick up the phone and call her. I drive to her house and visit with her. I take her to dinner. Nothing beats direct conversation. Same with Jesus. Who are Catholics to say I don't know Jesus as well as you do? Who's to say my life isn't a struggle as well? Who's to say that I don't work out my salvation with fear and trembling." Well if you can't see your girl you gotta use something to contact her: a phone, the net possibly. Your life is a struggle, that's why I didnt wanna get into the details in the arguement above because I felt it didnt really matter to discuss it and we couldnt judge what Jesus himself should judge. We believe however that these "tools" are ways we get to talk to Christ, like ur girl at camp, u gotta talk to her somehow whether by letter or by phone. We don't believe that you can't enter heaven. We believe these "tools" make it easier and there was just a debate now to see whether they made it harder to enter heaven or not. From what we believe, the Holy Spirit reveals our truths to us. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals truths to everyone but especially to the Church. Just look at the Mormons, they're obviously led in a lesser way than the Methodists. No one has complete truth, we only strive to have the closest to the truth. We believe in confession because it gives you a sense of guilt when you go to a person. We believe God didn't think it was the most effective method to just tell him your sorry. Telling someone trustworthy is more humialing and more effective to repent for Christ. We believe the priest is just a window and Christ is doing all the work in confession. I agree, some people abuse this privalage, but there always people that abuse a good thing. [quote]Now, you tell me what the truth lies. So many of you speak on how you have the absolute truth. Yet, I speak truth myself. But because I'm not Catholic, you reject my "truth"...even though everything that I say, Mr. Spock himself would call it perfectly logical. [/quote] Explain more please. We defend not only the tools God gives us (for we want others to be able to use them also) but we also defend God. God would want us to tell u about a way to get closer to him, wouldn't he? We defend him the most, without him, why would we defend these gifts? [quote]The holy spirit who guides me into all truth. Not he who guides me towards a wafer or a statue. He who guides me to TRUTH. [/quote] Of course, but we believe our Church is led by the Holy Spirit. [quote] I'll speak no more on this topic, and won't post here on Phatmass again. Dust, Indeed and Pontifex will always be "my boys". I love them dearly and do not judge them in any way. We have agreed to disagree. I only wish to advise you all....stop trying to become better "Catholics"....and start trying to become better representatives of the most high God. Because in HIM will you only find absolute truth. Fab[/quote] Now Fab, dont leave because of our moments of arrogance, we're sorry for them. I respect your views, as I'm sure all of us do, but it's a complex thing. You claimed, possibly without knowing, that your in more truth than us. You just settled the score. I have no clue whether someone intentionally meant to say Protestants don't make it to heaven. I find doctrinally incorrect. I doubt any superiors would say that NonCatholics don't make it to heaven without being a little on the drunk side. Please stay, we can try to work out our differences in a most openminded way. I'll pray for you Fab, please do the same for me. Pax Christi, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Truth, "ask and you shall recieve, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you", thats a verse i always love to use when talking about Truth, truth is everywhere, in little pieces but to find it Whole and Complete is what we need to always strive for..... as to explain on the sacrament of reconciliation aka confession, its a sacrament given by the Holy Spirit from Jesus Christ himself....heres something from catholic answers.. [i]For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 8:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8). Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning. God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.) [/i] Today, through the sacrament of Holy Orders through ordination of the priesthood we are continuing what Jesus Himself instructed...... no one thinks non-catholics can't make it to Heaven, its confusing because we are both talking about things we "know" but are all on different pages here, such as different terminology which make it even more difficult to understand what each of us are sayign.... as for the "tools" we need them, we can't follow Jesus on our own, we all fall short of God's glory, time and time again, God knows how weak we are, and knows we can only come before Him and know Him through His help, blessings and graces....the Catholic Church is the vessel to the sacraments that he wishes us to recieve, and have been since Jesus established the Church in 33.AD. we need a map, we need guidance, The Holy Spirit guides the Church of today promising Mt 16:18. the Church is made up of Holy Scripture (who Herself wrote and kept sacred) and Sacred Traditions continued from the very first christians who knew and followed Jesus (oral and apostalic) How do we know this? through history....one of the earliest writings called the Didache speaks of public confession. so we know we can only be absolved through a priest and the sacrament, though it is Christ doing the forgiving...but its this way since that is how Christ instructed it.... and intended it.... our methods of coming closer to Jesus are all pointed to Him and draws us closer to Christ.....perhaps i can answer any questions since we are clearly not being drawn to statues and wafers ......let me know if i can clear anything out for ya.... i hope you stay Fab, some posts could have been said better than they have, i agree, but dont leave.....i hope that wasn't yoru last post. cuz i too would be sad....you have contributed so much here and have always played an important role here at phatmass.... hope i cleared a little bit up (i hope).....and apologize for any ill feeling you may have experienced because we certainly did not want that... God bless and [i]always[/i] peace in Christ. :hearts: :jesus: +JMJ+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 as for the discussion on sacraments that has been running on this thread (starting on page 2), perhaps a thread in the DT or Open mic to continue/discuss more might be better? since this thread was about a rapper. lol just a suggestion..... hehe how threads revolve here on pm is beyond me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 lol, I'd get a headache from discussing that any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts