dUSt Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 May the love of Christ be with us. I see both sides. Although it may not have been worded in the most charitable manner, what MichaelFilo is saying is true. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church--period. This is doctrine, and as Catholics--we must believe it. If we didn't think that we had the fullness of truth, then we wouldn't be Catholic. It's really no different than a Protestant saying that we need Christ for salvation. Catholics say the same thing, but believe that the church is Christ's unified body--so when we say that without the church there is no salvation, what we are saying is that without Christ there is no salvation. Does this mean that all Ptotestants and non-Christians are going to hell? No. If someone is ignorant of the truth that Christ's church holds, through no fault of their own, then the Church leaves the possibility open that through the mystery of God's grace, they might be saved. But [b]if[/b] they are saved, it is through the Church, through Christ, that they are saved--no matter their religion. Now, on to "The Saint". I think it's innappropriate to be discussing his beliefs without him here to defend them. I'm sorry I created the thread. If in fact he did know that the church contained the fullness of truith, and still chose to reject it, then in essence he has rejected Christ--and therefore would not gain salvation. We can only be saved if we accept Christ. The fact that he still proclaims himself as Christian tells me he was ignorant of the Catholic faith (for if he believed that the church was Christ's church he wouldn't have left in in the first place)--so therefore, his salvation cannot be really determined, for only God can read his heart. As Catholics, it is important for us to recognize the fact that there are many people trying to follow Christ the best way they know how--and I see it as a failure on our part as Catholics that they don't recognize that the church is where Christ truly wants them to be. Let us live the best way we know how and be the examples Christ wants us to be. It is only through our example that non-Catholics will see with their minds so that the door will open for God to change their hearts. And Fab, I've used this analogy many times--it's possible to get to a destination with only bits and pieces of a map, but it's a whole lot easier when you have the whole thing. I believe Protestantism to contain many truths, but only the Catholic Church contains the [b]fullness[/b] of truth. If I believed anything else, I wouldn't be Catholic. Thank you for your many contributions and recognizing phatmass' ultimate mission of changing people's lives to follow God. I'm praying for your continued journey, as well as mine. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 If you feel calling your way of thinking heretical, makes you a heretic, then I cannot be held accountable for that. Calling the fans of a baseball team idiots, then you can honestly say you called any fan of theirs an idiot. Calling the same baseball team an idiotic team, you don't call any fan an idiot. I didn't call Protestants heretical, I called Protestantism heretical. Did you just look down on me for learning my faith from a man? 2Tm:1:13: Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me: in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus. We both serve God, but we are Christians called to spread the Truth. Settling on serving God is totally ignoring spreading and finding the Truth. Again, back to the point of this thread. He seems well-intentioned, but he maybe anti-Catholic. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Posted after dUst, but he posted while I was posting, sorry. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FabdaEclectic Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' date='Aug 29 2004, 04:00 PM'] I see both sides. Although it may not have been worded in the most charitable manner, what MichaelFilo is saying is true. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church--period. This is doctrine, and as Catholics--we must believe it. If we didn't think that we had the fullness of truth, then we wouldn't be Catholic. It's really no different than a Protestant saying that we need Christ for salvation. Catholics say the same thing, but believe that the church is Christ's unified body--so when we say that without the church there is no salvation, what we are saying is that without Christ there is no salvation. [/quote] Well Dust my friend.... I think you know me pretty well. I also think Pontifex knows me pretty well too. If you can't tell by my words and actions over the last 3 or so years that you've known me (and Fiti, since he's not Catholic either) that I'm (we're) saved, blood bought and going to heaven, then I do't know what to tell ya.... If this is what the Catholics teach, and with you knowing me as a person - if I were you, I'd question that doctrine homey....and if their teaching doesn't line up with what I see in someone, I'd stop being Catholic...because homey, no matter what your Pope says, Christ can be found IN HIS FULLNESS outside the Catholic church....I've seen it, and I think you've seen it in me and Fiti. Maybe this is an eye opener to Catholics as to why so many leave the church. Based on this news (which I never knew you believed), I'm going to stop posting here. Because this hurts pretty bad. Peace Fab Edited August 29, 2004 by FabdaEclectic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
follow_the_pelican Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 [quote]To me it doesn't matter whether or not you take the Eucharist every week or not.....Do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ? A REAL one? Does he speak to you? Do you listen, respomnd and act? Then that is all that matters to me..... and my opinion doesn't even count! God's does.[/quote] first of all, I did not think my uncharitable attitude towards "the saint" would result in a fiery debate of religous beliefes. As a seminarian I should have kept my mouth shut! I dont know "the saint" and I should have kept my opinion to my self. Perhaps I will learn when to speak and when to be silent. Second, fab...you are a purdy cool dude! your beats are sweet and your love for Christ and what you know to be the truth is really inspiring. If only Catholics had the religouse zeal that our Protastan breathren have, the world would be a catholic place. Now the Eucharist...man, that was just a little shabby! The Eucharist is the very heart of our exsistance and the the love of my life. With out Him we are nothing...and yes my good friend, how more personal can you get than to consume his body and blood. Your good guy Fab, you are following your heart. Continue to do this and you can not go wrong. God Bless bro and sorry if I seem harsh...not what I meant to be at all but some times I go off the the bat with my judgments. That is a big problem inmy life and would apreciate your prayer s to over come it. Pelican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
follow_the_pelican Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 based on this news: [quote]Based on this news (which I never knew you believed), I'm going to stop posting here. Because this hurts pretty bad.[/quote] I really feel bad...come back fab, come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 I didn't intend him to leave. I had no intention of making any have hurt feelings. I also wish he didn't go. I didn't say anything mean however. I am sorry he chose to do that. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 " I see both sides. Although it may not have been worded in the most charitable manner, what MichaelFilo is saying is true. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church--period. This is doctrine, and as Catholics--we must believe it. If we didn't think that we had the fullness of truth, then we wouldn't be Catholic. It's really no different than a Protestant saying that we need Christ for salvation. Catholics say the same thing, but believe that the church is Christ's unified body--so when we say that without the church there is no salvation, what we are saying is that without Christ there is no salvation. Does this mean that all Ptotestants and non-Christians are going to hell? No. If someone is ignorant of the truth that Christ's church holds, through no fault of their own, then the Church leaves the possibility open that through the mystery of God's grace, they might be saved. But if they are saved, it is through the Church, through Christ, that they are saved--no matter their religion." I think dust meant that you can be saved through Christ if you don't believe Catholicism is the best way to heaven. Fiti, if someone believed that our Church is the church of Christ and they chose to reject it, then you agree it'd be a sin, right? You, on the other hand, have a different set of beliefs. I doubt the Church believes God would beaver dam you if your not Catholic. I believe you missinterpretted the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dj 86 Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 All I can say is wow. I wonder if my hero JPII would tell someone if they were going to heaven or hell? Mass was all about humility tonight..........humbleness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 From the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X (this is what the Catholic Church teaches) [quote]Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church? A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church. Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved? A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church. Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation [/quote] We believe that the Catholic Church is the Ark afloat in the flooding world. Only by that ark can anyone be saved. Now, you might get close to the ark (believing in the main points of the ark, like Jesus Christ as True God and True Man) and with a desire to know the True Christ accidently get your shirt nailed to the side of the ark and be dragged along with us. your shirt might rip off and then you'd drown, or you might climb fully aboard and be saved with us, or maybe you'll just remain nailed there and be saved as well. perhaps one of us who is on the ark now falls off, we will drown as well. we all must persevere to the end to be saved. now, a Catholic does NOT judge anyone to heaven or to hell. But a Catholic knows that the Catholic Church is the ark by which someone is saved. A Catholic doesn't look at someone outside of the Church and say that they're a good person so they're gonna be saved (we're saved by faith, not by works), but rather tries to throw them a lifesaver of the One True Faith. likewise, while you're down there nailed to the side of the boat we'll throw you a rope and tell you to climb aboard, because in the Catholic Church do you most fully encounter Jesus Christ. This is our belief. This is founded biblically, there was never tolerance of a different set of beliefs in the Biblical Church. Salvation comes by being a member of the Flock Christ gathered together and set upon the rock of authoritative men representing Him through history guarded by the Holy Spirit from error. Catholics cannot say whether you're going to heaven or hell, even if they knew you as closely as a human being can know another human being they couldn't say whether or not you are going to hell. but they can say this or that thing [i]could [/i]send you to hell so you should steer clear of it. such is what we mean when we call protestantism heresy. we mean, this is something contrary to the Faith we believe Christ instituted, and thus you should not continue to follow the parts of it which put you in opposition to Christ's Church. i.e.: take that nail out of your shirt and climb aboard the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FabdaEclectic Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 (edited) **post edited and withdrawn** I'm out Fab Edited August 30, 2004 by FabdaEclectic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 [quote name='FabdaEclectic' date='Aug 29 2004, 04:41 PM'] Based on this news (which I never knew you believed), I'm going to stop posting here. Because this hurts pretty bad. Peace Fab [/quote] I'm confused. What is it that I believe that you didn't think I believed before? You read more than just the first paragraph of my above post, right? If you're going to fault me for being firm in my beliefs, then I can't do anything about that. I consider you a valued friend, but my faith is more important than anything. It's more important than my wife--more important than my own children. If you really stop posting here then it hurts me as well. I thought that despite our theological differences, we could continue to remain friends. Do you have muslim friends? Do they know that Christians don't think that Muslims are saved--and yet they remain your friend? Please re-read my above post, after the first paragraph. What you decide is up to you, but please remember that I am 100% Catholic, and believe that everything the Church teaches is 100% truth. It is through [b]Christ[/b] that we will work out our differences, because the Church teaches us that our devotion to [b]Him[/b] is most important. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 [quote]If this is what the Catholics teach, and with you knowing me as a person - if I were you, I'd question that doctrine homey....and if their teaching doesn't line up with what I see in someone, I'd stop being Catholic...because homey, no matter what your Pope says, Christ can be found IN HIS FULLNESS outside the Catholic church....I've seen it, and I think you've seen it in me and Fiti. [/quote] The church doesn't teach that you are not saved. We don't know your heart--only God does. If I personally had to guess, I'd say that you and Fiti will be next to me in Heaven. Church teaching allows that possibility. Oh, and John Paul II is [b]our[/b] pope--not just mine. [quote]Maybe this is an eye opener to Catholics as to why so many leave the church.[/quote] Everyone who leaves the Church does so because they don't recognize that Christ is present within the Church--which is a shame. Everything the church teaches is Christ centered, and His presence in the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. Obviously, those who leave it don't recognize that, which can partly be blamed on the failed teaching ability of the flawed humans that make up the church. Those of us who recognize that Christ is present within the Church have no reason to leave. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 I dont think its wrong to believe that if you joined our Church, the elements of it would make it easier for u to get to heaven (confession, eucharist, etc). I dont believe its very offensive unless we try converting you guys. We respect Protestant religion but we believe we have the easier mountain to climb (because of the sacraments and some other stuff........). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Hardly so. We have the larger mountain to climb. The more Truth you have, the harder your task. We are called to sanctity. They are not. We have a HUGE task ahead of us, they have no need for sanctification. It is a plus to them, not a requirement. This makes it hard for us, not them. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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