qfnol31 Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I am personally with Plato on this, and think that Democracy, or our current form of government, is by far not the best that we could have. There are many things that I disagree with in the setup of our government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrndveritatis Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 [quote]I am personally with Plato on this, and think that Democracy, or our current form of government, is by far not the best that we could have. There are many things that I disagree with in the setup of our government. [/quote] Hey [i]The Republic[/i] is an awesome book. But I think that the setup (original, constitutional, theoretical, not as currently practiced) of our republic is pretty good as far as democracies go. Do you think it would be possible for a monarchy to work in America? Or what do you think is the best form of government we could have? Aquinas said a monarchy would be best. But he allows for the fact that any form of government is just if it pursues the common good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 America was actually founded as a Constitutional Republic, not a pure Democracy -there is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 [quote]America was actually founded as a Constitutional Republic, not a pure Democracy -there is a difference. [/quote] This is a good point because certain things are the constitutional non-negotiales - not open for majority rule. Everything else is majority rule democracy. Whereas pure would be all majority rule. The problem in American is decideing what should should be the constitutional part. Often to the point of making it practically pure democracy. The constitutional part is going to become temporary ideals someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrndveritatis Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Yeah, a constitutional republic answers many of the objections which Socrates raises in Plato's [i]Republic[/i]. The Constitution limits mob rule. The Founding Fathers set it up with this in mind. The masses are fickle and can be led astray by demagogues. The whole system of three branches and a Senate was set up to overcome the problems of democracies. But megamattman, you are right in saying that the Constitution is almost a temporary ideal. Look at how all these mechanisms are being killed off one by one. Now the people elect senators. Now the electoral college is criticized. Now the will of the people dominates and the representatives really don't do anything. Really representatives are supposed to be chosen for their wisdom and then they decide policy, not the people, and they pick the Senators and president. Direct democracy is approaching, against the wishes of the Founding Fathers in the Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 [quote name='jrndveritatis' date='Aug 26 2004, 09:26 PM'] Do you think it would be possible for a monarchy to work in America? [/quote] Probably not - most likely we'd end up with a terrible king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 [quote name='jrndveritatis' date='Aug 26 2004, 09:26 PM'] Aquinas said a monarchy would be best. But he allows for the fact that any form of government is just if it pursues the common good. [/quote] LoL, today, in our country, the common good seems to be too secularized... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 megamattman1, I would like to respond to your question, though I know I am late in joining the conversation. I think one would be in error to claim that the American Governmental system is intrinsically evil, as one would be in error to claim that [i]any[/i] governmental system is intrinsically evil. Even dictatorship is not, by necessity, evil. A dictator may be evil, but the system itself is not. So too with a King, or a republic, or a democracy, or anything in between. (lets avoid communism for now, as it goes beyond a simple governmental system and incorporates false social doctrines). The issue, really, is of people, not the system. If the people within the American Government are good, so too with the government be. If the Monarch or Dictator is a good person, so too with the Monarchy or the Dictatorship be a good one. Seeking to portray the American Government as "evil" because it takes into account (in most cases) the majority morality rather than true morality, is, ultimately, a poor and unscholarly thing to do, because one could make the same assertion with regards to Monarchy (for a monarchy, in fact, asserts only the morality of [i]one[/i], so its all or nothing). If you are asking whether or not America, as a nation, is evil as a result of the corruption of its government [i]visa vi[/i] its people, then I would argue, on the whole, yes. Secularism and Tolerance have gone too far. When I look at America today, all too often I see a frenzied mob running around every which way, screaming and shouting "freedom." They are so enslaved by this idea, so fanatical about it, that they will break asunder anything that even remotely looks as if it is a form of bondage. This mob, in its frenzy and rage, it seems has broken the "bonds" of morality upon the nation, and, it seems to me, has shattered the chains of bondage that were keeping Satan in hell. However, while I assert that a great many people in America are evil, I would never assert that the system itself is bad. Also, just on a side note, Chesterton makes a great argument for democracy in his book [u]Orthodoxy[/u]. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) [quote]When I look at America today, all too often I see a frenzied mob running around every which way, screaming and shouting "freedom." They are so enslaved by this idea, so fanatical about it, that they will break asunder anything that even remotely looks as if it is a form of bondage.[/quote] Ironically, this desire for (false) freedom (licentiousness is a more acurate word) leads not to greater freedom, but to increasing beaurocratized tyranny. Liberal judges and courts strike down even the most basic religious freedoms to protect the interests of secularists, homsexuals, etc. As a nation, we are much less free than we were at the time of America's founding (and ironically less free than even under the tyranny of King George). The power of the federal government has increased tremendously over the past century or so. The courts have put local institutions such as families, churches, schools and businesses under increasing restraint. Tyrannical taxes and regulations burden everyone. Freedom of religion, true free speech (not the same as obscenity!) and the right to bear arms are under increasing threats from politically correct interests. We should stand up for true freedom and fight licentiousness and politically correct tyranny! Edited August 27, 2004 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Isn't it really true that the government can't be evil, especially the people making it up? Technically, I would think only their actions could be evil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Knight Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Aug 26 2004, 07:33 PM'] Yes, but isn't there such a thing as too much freedom? The problem with America is that if we didn't have half the freedoms we have, half the things we do as Catholics would be illegal... perhaps a good deal of us would be martyrs, then. Now, if we had good leaders, then we wouldn't need quite so many freedoms because we'd have good/better laws. [/quote] Agreed to a certian extent one can have too much freedom, such as to speak out against the Laws of God. But if you also wanna get technically about it theres really nothing free about Life. Christ, paid to Ultimate price for our freedom against the Devil, Sin, and the World. Not even that was free. Sorry I got off topic there alittle bit, but I do think America needs some restrictions and such, but I dont believe the Government sould place restrictions on everything. I do believe our Government could lean more towards the Good or Evil side, depending on who we elect for our government officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 [quote name='White Knight' date='Aug 29 2004, 08:28 PM'] Agreed to a certian extent one can have too much freedom, such as to speak out against the Laws of God. But if you also wanna get technically about it theres really nothing free about Life. Christ, paid to Ultimate price for our freedom against the Devil, Sin, and the World. Not even that was free. Sorry I got off topic there alittle bit, but I do think America needs some restrictions and such, but I dont believe the Government sould place restrictions on everything. I do believe our Government could lean more towards the Good or Evil side, depending on who we elect for our government officials. [/quote] I agree with you. I was just... thinking somewhat theoretically, and I tend to have a hard time getting my thoughts down clearly when I do that. But it seems like you've gotten my point, so I guess it wasn't too bad. I confuse myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Knight Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Aug 29 2004, 09:22 PM'] I agree with you. I was just... thinking somewhat theoretically, and I tend to have a hard time getting my thoughts down clearly when I do that. But it seems like you've gotten my point, so I guess it wasn't too bad. I confuse myself. [/quote] lol I do too lol. But yes I did get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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