What Did Bush Say About Outsourcing Jobs?

[ironmonk]

Typical blatant lies from Kerry's side..... 90% lie or wrong. 10% Insanity.

Why do they have to lie about Bush? Hmmmm...

This is the exact stuff that I have noticed from 90% of the democrats running for office the last 13 years or so... I've only seen this garbage from republican sides about 10% of the time. So many people say "all politicians lie" - I say, no they don't... it's mostly the liberal democrats.


[url="http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=236"]http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=236[/url]



[quote]Media Fund Ad

"Ohio Outsourced"

Louis Russo: We were told immediately that we were gone, so there wasn't any warning.

Edward Lucas: Everything you worked for is gone.

Sherease Rankin: It saves them money. They can have people in other countries doing our jobs.

Louis Russo: When President Bush says he's going to help companies outsource jobs, it's infuriating.

Sherease Rankin: You can be stationed in India and take a phone call. No one has to know you're in India.

Edward Lucas: You can't give companies tax breaks to take American jobs away.[/quote]

[b]Media Fund Ad Misquotes Bush [/b]
Pro-Kerry group’s ad claims “Bush says he's going to help companies outsource jobs.” But Bush never said that.

Summary

An ad released by the Media Fund Aug. 11 is targeted to Ohio, featuring Ohio residents criticizing the President for loss of jobs overseas. In it, one of them says, "When President Bush says he's going to help companies outsource jobs, it's infuriating."

Maybe it would be infuriating if Bush really had said that, but he didn't.

What Bush has actually said is this: "The best way to deal with job creation and outsourcing is to make sure our businesses are competitive here at home."


Analysis


This ad is just the latest in a steady drum-beat of Democratic attacks blaming Bush for job losses overseas. In this one, a man identified as Louis Russo, a Cleveland resident, says, "When President Bush says he's going to help companies outsource jobs, it's infuriating." The fact is, Bush never said that.



What Bush Really Said

Here's what the President has really said on the subject:
Bush (Bay Shore, New York March 11, 2004): You hear talk about outsourcing -- I'm as concerned about outsourcing as the next person. But the way to deal with outsourcing is to make America a better place to do business, not a worse place . Raising taxes will make it harder to create jobs. Lawsuits make it harder to create jobs. We need an energy policy, so people can plan their businesses around a solid supply of energy. We need to be less dependent on foreign sources of energy if we want to make sure jobs stay here.

Bush (Washington, DC, March 16, 2004): You hear a lot of rhetoric in Washington about jobs and job creation and outsourcing. The best way to deal with job creation and outsourcing is to make sure our businesses are competitive here at home . The more competitive we are here at home, the better it is to do business at home, the more likely it is we'll keep jobs here at home. And association health plans is one such way.

Bush (Dayton, Ohio, May 4, 2004): We care about outsourcing in America. We want people working here. But the wrong policy would have been, let's go through economic isolationist policy, let's wall us off from the world . Instead, the right policy was to stimulate growth at home. . . . My point is, let us be confident about ourselves. Let's put the right policies in place that encourage growth at home.

We searched transcripts of Bush's public statements since taking office, and found none in which he said he wanted to help companies send jobs overseas. The Media Fund posted its own backup for the ad which cited not a single quote from the President.

Bush's top economic aides have indeed defended the ability of US companies to get work done overseas when that's cheaper than having it done in the US, arguing (as do most economists) that the increased efficiency the companies gain eventually produces a net gain in jobs in the US. Bush administration officials also oppose any new legal restrictions on outsourcing jobs overseas as a violation of free trade. But they aren't proposing new incentives to outsource jobs, as the phrase "says he's going to help" implies. So even Bush's aides didn't say what the ad says Bush did.

This ad simply misquotes him, falsely putting callous words in his mouth that he never uttered.

The Tax Break Issue

The ad also shows a man identified as Edward Lucas, a resident of Mayfield Heights, Ohio, as saying, " You can't give companies tax breaks to take American jobs away." He's referring to the way the US tax code gives some financial incentive to US companies to invest profits overseas rather than bring them back to the US to be taxed.

As we've explained before, Bush didn't put that into the tax code: it's been there as long as there has been a corporate income tax.

We've outlined the disagreement between Kerry and Bush on this issue in detail in an earlier article . Economists generally agree that the tax incentive favoring overseas investment is a relatively minor problem that Kerry's proposal won't do much to fix.


[b]Sources[/b]

"President Bush Discusses Job Training and the Economy in NY: Remarks by the President in a Conversation on the Economy," Bay Shore, New York, 11 March 2004.

"President Discusses Health Access," U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Washington, DC, 16 March 2004.

"Remarks by the President at 'ask President Bush' Event," Hara Complex
Dayton, Ohio, 4 May 2004.

The Media Fund, Factual Backup for "Ohio Outsourced" ad, www.makeamericaworkforus.com, accessed 11 Aug 2004.





God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited August 23, 2004 by ironmonk

[megamattman1]

I'd say that was deceptive. If you wanted to call it a lie, I wouldn't argue about it.
Kerry is probably refering to Bush's economic policy towards outsourcing.

[quote]Bush's top economic aides have indeed defended the ability of US companies to get work done overseas when that's cheaper than having it done in the US, arguing (as do most economists) that the increased efficiency the companies gain eventually produces a net gain in jobs in the US. [/quote]


I'd think that outsourcing would create jobs from the increased efficientcy if it is necessary to outsource. Like democrats like to rant about, it'd probably make the rich get richer and the poor get poorer... and the middle class falling away all in one. So what we'd have is richer rich and a lot more poor. Just as long as the poor have a reasonable assurance of the basics of life, I personally don't see a problem with it.

Kerry must want to make policies to prevent outsourcing. This would keep the middle class, but would prevent the jobs that would come from the increased efficiency.

Bush must want to make doing business in the US more tenable by more business incentives. This seems like the best economic policy because there would be no outsourcing and all the jobs would stay at home with the increased efficiency to add the jobs anyway.


But I don't really know the econoically dissenters to the Bush economics, if there is one. Or the moral critiques that outsourcing might create. It does sound good for now though. So as always, we should recognize and admit the uncertainty of the situation and do best with what we have.

Bush's economics do seem best, does anyone have a reason to disagree?

Edited August 23, 2004 by megamattman1

[megamattman1]

Well I s'pose there's always going to be incentives for businesses to outsource if the US keeps it minimum wage etc. Unless we get a firm answer to this question:
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18621"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18621[/url]
So the question is since outsourcing is next to inevitable what should we do?

I suppose we could try Bush's economic policy, and then try some of Kerry's policies. Or we could just let the outsourcing occur. I really don't have a preference. I'd ask does anyone else, but I'm sure it'll just come down to if you're for outsourcing or not, and I've seen ya'll talk bout that already.

Edited August 24, 2004 by megamattman1

[ironmonk]

[quote name='megamattman1' date='Aug 24 2004, 12:11 AM'] Well I s'pose there's always going to be incentives for businesses to outsource if the US keeps it minimum wage etc. Unless we get a firm answer to this question:
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18621"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18621[/url]
So the question is since outsourcing is next to inevitable what should we do?

I suppose we could try Bush's economic policy, and then try some of Kerry's policies. Or we could just let the outsourcing occur. I really don't have a preference. I'd ask does anyone else, but I'm sure it'll just come down to if you're for outsourcing or not, and I've seen ya'll talk bout that already. [/quote]
The thing is kerry hasn't said what his plans are.

Not to mention the man is constantly contradicting himself... there is no way to believe what his policies are... if there are any.

He wasn't doing his job 76% of the time in Senate - he's not going to do a good job as a president. And if I remember correctly, almost everything he voted for in senate failed. The guy is a farce. How he was able to stay a sentator so long is beyond me... people voting for him must have been ignorant or just stupid.

He can't be trusted with anything... he's proven time and time again that he only tells people what he thinks they want to hear.


Minimum wage going up or staying where it's at will not effect people outsourcing jobs to other countries. It will cost jobs at the larger companies that have a lot of min. wage workers.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Norseman82]

One positive note here. My company went on an outsourcing binge to India a few years ago. They found the quality of work was not up to par so they "reverse migrated" many of the job functions back here.

Let's talk more about that part of the tax code people say encourages outsourcing.

[Good Friday]

First, I don't know what this is doing here. This couldn't be more [b]remote[/b] from Catholicism if it tried to be. But I suppose it's all a part of the Republican takeover of Phatmass.

Now, that said, I think the Democrats shouldn't have been deceptive. Still, that doesn't mean Bush's policy on outsourcing is great. It isn't. He at least doesn't think outsourcing needs to be discouraged, when in fact it is costing American jobs and driving increasing numbers of Americans into poverty. He could easily discourage outsourcing by closing tax loopholes that give companies incentives to move overseas, but he refuses to do so. He could also give companies tax incentives to keep jobs here, but he refuses to do so. His economic plan has failed in that he has actually lost jobs rather than gained them, and there are 1.3 million more people in poverty than there were a year ago. Also, 18% of American children are in poverty in this country. That's almost 1/5 of American children. Bush has failed economically, and there really is no way around it.

On the subject of the minimum wage -- with the cost of living constantly going up, people can't live on the minimum wage as it stands. Republicans want to abolish it, Democrats want to raise it. Abolishing it would cause companies to lower their wages even more, driving many more people into poverty. Raising it would help people avoid losing their homes and having to decide who is and isn't going to eat in their homes on any given night. Obviously, although the opposite is usually true, the Democrats have the moral high ground on the minimum wage issue.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Aug 27 2004, 03:01 AM'] First, I don't know what this is doing here. This couldn't be more [b]remote[/b] from Catholicism if it tried to be. But I suppose it's all a part of the Republican takeover of Phatmass.

[/quote]
This is here because it is an important topic. When are you going to realize that the rep party best represents the Catholic Church teachings, THAT is why there are more reps then dems on the board.



[quote]Now, that said, I think the Democrats shouldn't have been deceptive. [/quote]

But it's par for the course from them.



[quote]Still, that doesn't mean Bush's policy on outsourcing is great.  It isn't.  He at least doesn't think outsourcing needs to be discouraged, when in fact it is costing American jobs and driving increasing numbers of Americans into poverty.  He could easily discourage outsourcing by closing tax loopholes that give companies incentives to move overseas, but he refuses to do so. [/quote]

Wrong. He does think outsourcing needs to be discouraged, but realizes this is a free country and businesses will build where they want to. The tax breaks that come from the other countries are the reasons why businesses leave and outsource which our government has no control over the tax breaks that come from other countries. Outsourcing in the tech market happens because of the ease... [url="http://www.elance.com"]http://www.elance.com[/url] - full of overseas developers.



[quote] He could also give companies tax incentives to keep jobs here, but he refuses to do so.  His economic plan has failed in that he has actually lost jobs rather than gained them, and there are 1.3 million more people in poverty than there were a year ago.  Also, 18% of American children are in poverty in this country.  That's almost 1/5 of American children.  Bush has failed economically, and there really is no way around it.[/quote]

Bush has not failed. Poverty levels are getting worse mainly because of credit card debt. People are living beyond there means.


[quote]On the subject of the minimum wage -- with the cost of living constantly going up, people can't live on the minimum wage as it stands. [/quote]

People have the opportunity in this country to better themselves. People do have some responsibility in their condition.


[quote]Republicans want to abolish it, [/quote]

Wrong.


[quote]Democrats want to raise it.  Abolishing it would cause companies to lower their wages even more, driving many more people into poverty.  Raising it would help people avoid losing their homes and having to decide who is and isn't going to eat in their homes on any given night.  Obviously, although the opposite is usually true, the Democrats have the moral high ground on the minimum wage issue.[/quote]

The reps do not want to abolish it. Where in the world did you get such a crock?

Raising minimum wage will cost people jobs at the larger companies. Better for 10 people to work than 6 people and 4 without jobs.

The reps have the higher moral ground and common sense that applies to this issue.




God Bless,
ironmonk

[megamattman1]

I heard on the news that one of Kerry's ideas was to give tax credits to people who go overseas to come back. There were some other ideas but I forget what they were.

So a question that does arise is, to what extent should we prevent outsourcing after the best econominc conditions have been tried? That is if it is bad.


Also, since I'm sure many will say it doesn't matter if Kerry is against it since he can't be trust, I'm curious as to what Kerry has lied about or has flip flopped on. Not counting the deceptiveness.


Edit: [url="http://www.gop.com/kerryvskerry/backup.asp#1"]http://www.gop.com/kerryvskerry/backup.asp#1[/url]

There's those. Most actually look deceptive on the part of the gop. But some do look blantantly flip flop.

They need analyzed in more detail.

Edited August 27, 2004 by megamattman1

[megamattman1]

And here is the site that led me to that other one.

[url="http://bushcampaignlies.blogspot.com/2004/03/word-about-voting-in-senate.html"]http://bushcampaignlies.blogspot.com/2004/...-in-senate.html[/url]


I didn't intend to add it because I assumed it was a hyped up (most political pages are) antibush website that just happened to find a somewhat "scholarly" source and happened to be nonpartisan enough to post it.

(And this one too with the red and the blue, very cool.
[url="http://bushcampaignlies.blogspot.com/2004/03/kerrys-flip-flops.html"]http://bushcampaignlies.blogspot.com/2004/...flip-flops.html[/url] )

But this website is actually pretty informing. It also has lots of details etc. And it refute many of those flip flops.

But it does have its downfalls.

Look and see for yourself!

EDIT: [url="http://bushcampaignlies.blogspot.com/2004/03/spinning-his-constituents-kerry-took.html"]http://bushcampaignlies.blogspot.com/2004/...kerry-took.html[/url]

And that shows that they at the site are will to call something very disingenuous a flip flop! I like the site a lot.

Edited August 27, 2004 by megamattman1

[Good Friday]

[quote name='ironmonk']This is here because it is an important topic. When are you going to realize that the rep party best represents the Catholic Church teachings, THAT is why there are more reps then dems on the board.[/quote]
It has nothing to do with Catholicism, but you're posting it on a Catholic forum. Go figure. I've already acknowledged in many different places that the Republican Party best represents Catholic teaching; I refuse to become Republican and choose to remain independent because I [b]hate[/b] some of their policies that are not in line with Church teaching, and because I will not support those policies by joining their party. Your conscience might be clear by supporting policies that drive people, and 18% of children, into poverty, but mine wouldn't be.

[quote name='ironmonk']Wrong. He does think outsourcing needs to be discouraged, but realizes this is a free country and businesses will build where they want to. The tax breaks that come from the other countries are the reasons why businesses leave and outsource which our government has no control over the tax breaks that come from other countries. Outsourcing in the tech market happens because of the ease... [url="http://www.elance.com"]http://www.elance.com[/url] - full of overseas developers.[/quote]
It's not just tax breaks from other countries, there are tax loopholes [b]in this country[/b] that allow companies to outsource, and Bush won't close the loopholes. But I don't know why I'm even bothering to discuss this with you, you'd support Bush and justify his actions no matter what he did. Everyone here knows it.

[quote name='ironmonk']Bush has not failed. Poverty levels are getting worse mainly because of credit card debt. People are living beyond there means.[/quote]
People are "living beyond their means" because their means are $5.15 an hour. People [b]must[/b] live beyond their means to live at all. Bush and his Republican Party refuse to raise the minimum wage, and in fact many in the Republican Party have wanted to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.

[quote name='ironmonk']People have the opportunity in this country to better themselves. People do have some responsibility in their condition.[/quote]
So you're saying that it's the people's fault that the minimum wage is much lower than the cost of living? And if by "the opportunity . . . to better themselves" you mean college, there are many people who can't go to college because of the high cost of tuition. This is most especially true among the middle class, people who make too much to get much financial aid but too little to actually cover tuition. Children of heterosexual parents with jobs are punished because of that very fact, and severe burdens are placed on them just to make sure their kids go to college so they can have jobs that pay higher than the minimum wage, which drives people into poverty. Do you care?

[JP2Iloveyou]

Good Friday, with all due respect, the only time I ever held a job that paid less than $6.00 an hour was when I was 14 and I bagged groceries. If the minimum wage were say, $7.00 an hour, I doubt I would have been hired. Anyway, I have not as of yet graduated from college and for the last four years, I have not held a job that pays less than $7.50 an hour. I have no doubt that there are people being paid minimum wage, but I don't think it is as extensive as you think. Furthermore, one of those jobs was working in a turkey plant with many, many racial minorities (probably 75% or more). Every single person in that plant ears WELL over the minimum wage. Every person, even those just starting, earn more than $8.00 an hour. Some people, not management mind you but normal blue collar workers, earn as much as $25.00 an hour or more. In any event, my proposal would be to raise the minimum wage the same rate as inflation, retroactive to the last minimum wage hike. So, if in a given year, inflation went up 3%, then the minimum wage would increase by 3%.

[track2004]

One problem with minimum wage is that it cannot actually support people. Maybe, just maybe, it could support one person where the cost of living is abysmally low and they don't like entertainment and love Ramen noodles. I think everyone understands that, but raising it won't help much because it will boost inflation. A drastic change in minimum wage will force everything else into becoming increasingly expensive. I think that minimum wage, no matter if its 5.15 or 35.75 (yes thirty five) will only be able to support the afore mentioned life style, but I don't want my Ramen noodles to cost 75 cents, I like it at 11.

[ironmonk]

[color=red][Edited by dUSt: Personal Attack][/color]

[megamattman1]

people are getting families when they shouldn't be. they are not moving up in the world when they should. i'd say the ideal world would be where everyone starts low and ideally everyone moves up. get family along the way etc.

but this is reality and that don't happen. maybe we should have programs to get to this ideal.


but this is about outsourcing. so do your thing everyone.

[JP2Iloveyou]

"maybe we should have programs to get to this ideal."

NO! The last thing we need is one more government program!