Justification

[Briguy]

Morph, sorry about the delay in getting back to you. Hope you have been well. I read what you had linked to and agreed with some things. This in particular struck me:

"One is justified by faith, as mentioned through Romans, this means once a person truly believes in God, Jesus Christ as the Messiah, they are wiped of all sin."


Later in the post Baptism is added but that goes against what is said above. At any rate what I was hoping from you was a response to my saying that God knows all and so anything we do can't "Prove" or "make us right" with God because he knows all of our choices and actions before they happen. If possible, just deal with that issue. Thanks much
Take Care,
In Christ,
Brian

[Guest JeffCR07]

Briguy, welcome to phatmass! I hope you'll stick around and I'll talk with you on other topics!

I would just like to clarify that for catholics, it is impossible to speak on "justification" without also speaking on "sanctification." As catholics, we believe that justification and sanctification happen simultaneously. Sanctification, which is the grace of God transforming our hearts and minds and making us truly upright and righteous, is a wellspring from which Faith, Works, and most importantly, Love all pour forth. Thus, for a catholic, we do not do good works in the hopes that we will "prove" to God our goodness, but rather, we do good works because Christ's grace is living within us, and working through us.

I hope that helps!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

Jeff, in Roman Catholic soteriology, does justification involve an element of imputation? (ie. the way I've heard it explained, by prominent scholars such as Scott Hahn, is that God declares to a person "You are just", thus imputing Christ's righteousness to them by faith. However, that declaration then goes forth in power to actually make that person ontologically righteous)

[Aloysius]

ICTHUS, that seems quite plausible, I could come to accept that notion pending further evidence...

[Guest JeffCR07]

Icthus, while I admit that I am not positive with regards to that particular question, I would be wary of claiming such a distinctive seperation. What God declares must ontologically be so, and it is certainly true that we are saved by Christ's merits alone, however, Sanctification (and Justification) are lifelong processes, and so to seperate the two, and to make it seem as if this "event" takes place at a particular moment may be an error.

I know that you may view this as a non-answer, but at this point in time, it is the best that I can do. If you really want a definitive answer, just PM me and I'd be more than happy to work with you to find the solution!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MorphRC]

Q. Why does the Catholic Church baptize infants, who have no understanding of what is taking place?


A. The Catholic Church baptizes infants because Christ wills it. He must will it because He said, “Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me.” (Matt 19:14). According to the Apostle Paul, one cannot truly come to Christ except through Baptism. (Rom. 6:3-4). Christ must will it because the Apostles baptized “all the people” (Luke 3:21) and whole households (Acts 16:15, 1 Cor. 1:16). Certainly “all the people” and whole “households” included infants. Christ must will it because He stated categorically that Baptism is a necessary prerequisite for salvation (John 3:5), and He certainly desires the salvation of infants. He must will it because the primitive Christian Church, which had fresh firsthand knowledge of His Will, baptized infants. In the ancient catacombs of Rome the inscriptions on the tombs of infants make mention of their having been baptized. One such inscription reads: “Here rests Archillia, a newly-baptized: she was one year and five months old; died February 23rd.”

An unbaptized infant is not simply in a “natural” state; it is in the state of reprobation, living under the reign of Satan, with the sin of Adam “staining” its soul. Therefore infants should be baptized as soon as is reasonably possible—usually within 2-3 weeks of birth. When children grow up with Our Lord dwelling in their souls, they have a powerful protection against sin. Moreover, Our Lord can thereby draw children to a deep love for Himself at a very early age ans he did with St. Therese, St. Maria Goretti, St. Dominic Savio, and Fransisco and Jacinta Marto.



Taken from "The Catholic Church has the Answer"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 31 2004, 02:45 PM']Jeff, in Roman Catholic soteriology, does justification involve an element of imputation? (ie. the way I've heard it explained, by prominent scholars such as Scott Hahn, is that God declares to a person "You are just", thus imputing Christ's righteousness to them by faith. However, that declaration then goes forth in power to actually make that person ontologically righteous)[/quote]
When justifying grace is infused into a man, it is really imparted to him and not merely imputed to him as some kind of foreign or extrinsic righteousness. In other words, the man in question really, and not in mere appearance, becomes just before God. This is a gift of God and not something that the man has earned, any more than the act of faith he has made in Christ under the impulse of grace is something he has done alone.

The justified man is an icon of Christ, and so just as Christ is one Divine Person in two natures, divine and human, and just as Christ's actions are properly theandric; so too, the justified man is one created human person who operates in two natures, human by nature and divine by grace. There is an analogy between justification and the incarnation, and so to deny that man, under the power of grace, cooperates with God, is to fall into a form of anthropological monothelitism or monophystism. Thus it follows that the works of a Christian, which are really his works, are also God's works, in, with, and through him.

Now, any doctrine that teaches that man receives an "imputed" righteousness, all the while remaining intrinsically unjust because the righteousness given is foreign or extrinsic to his being, would be unacceptable to the Catholic Church. Justification can only be called imputed when it includes an infusion of grace that really changes man from within. Therefore the terms "imputed" and "imparted" cannot be legitimately separated, because what God imputes to man He simultaneously imparts to him. What God declares to be so, is so, and not merely in appearance or as a type of covering, but as an ontological reality.

The part of your post that concerns me is the following phrase: ". . . thus imputing Christ's righteousness to them by faith. [i]However, that declaration [b]then goes forth in power[/b] to actually make that person ontologically righteous[/i]." If by this phrase you are implying a type of separation between the imputation and the imparting of the righteousness given by grace, this temporal delay would be unacceptable in Catholic doctrine.

[MorphRC]

Ichtus what religion are you?? You ascribe to anglicanism, calvinism, protestantisim, forms of evangelists, do you pick and choose what u like, then make ur own or what?

[Briguy]

Hi Jeff, Thanks for the nice post. I will check the board from time to time and discuss things as I can. You wrote:

"Thus, for a catholic, we do not do good works in the hopes that we will "prove" to God our goodness, but rather, we do good works because Christ's grace is living within us, and working through us".

I serve Jesus Christ for the same reason. I am so thankful that he saved a mess like me, that I serve him gladly. I was justified (made right with God) when I truted Jesus by faith to forgive my sins). I was sanctified (set apart) at the same time. Made right with God and set apart to serve Him, what an awesome thing. Here though is where I believe we part ways. If I get down for a while and serve less or doubt God because of some tragic or even less then tragic event, I don't lose my justification or sanctification. In the Catholic view I am in danger of tipping the scales the wrong way and losing what was given me by my Faith in Christ. I believe it is possible for the Christian to doubt (Peter did) and I believe it is possible at times for the Christian to fail God (Peter and Paul did). I really believe and trust and cling to the fact that when I was saved God reached down and grabbed me, I did not reach up and grab Him. Because of that, I know that He is faithful, even if my faith waivers at times and my "works" diminish for a season, He will not let go of me, for He is perfect. My justification and sanctification were sealed at that very moment I went into His hand. I need to believe that because I know how I am and what I think, etc... I thank God all the time that He is faithful and Strong, because often in the battles with the world I am not. Hope that makes sense.

Would love to comment on Baptism but that would be off subject. Hopefully can discuss that at another time.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 1 2004, 02:29 AM'] Christ must will it because the Apostles baptized “all the people” (Luke 3:21) and whole households (Acts 16:15, 1 Cor. 1:16). Certainly “all the people” and whole “households” included infants. [/quote]
Why do people forget this? It seems perfectly logical to me that not everyone in the household would be of an age where they could understand & accept God's salvation on their own, but the head of the household took the initiative so that the child could be covered in God's grace and brought to Him. Thanks, Morph!

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 1 2004, 02:53 AM'] Ichtus what religion are you?? You ascribe to anglicanism, calvinism, protestantisim, forms of evangelists, do you pick and choose what u like, then make ur own or what? [/quote]
I am a Christian. That's what religion I am.

Oh..you were asking me if I was a Protestant. What are you doing describing Protestant denominations to me? I haven't yet found a good, historically Protestant church yet that fits what I believe to be historical ecclesiology (synodical episcopalian, like the Catholic Church except minus the Pope) practice (by that, I mean liturgy and frequency of the Eucharistic Celebration - the only Presbyterian church in my city that I know of only celebrates Holy Communion once every quarter), and soteriology. At the moment, though, I'm leaning Lutheran, as I've found a Lutheran church that I quite like.

Why do you ask?

Edited September 2, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Aloysius]

let me save you the trouble, you won't find one.

thus either admit the pope is necessary for the unity of such a synodical church, or start your own church as so many others have done.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='shinobininjasp' date='Sep 2 2004, 11:31 PM'] Why do people forget this? It seems perfectly logical to me that not everyone in the household would be of an age where they could understand & accept God's salvation on their own, but the head of the household took the initiative so that the child could be covered in God's grace and brought to Him. Thanks, Morph! [/quote]
np

[MorphRC]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 3 2004, 08:57 AM'] I am a Christian. That's what religion I am.

Oh..you were asking me if I was a Protestant. What are you doing describing Protestant denominations to me? I haven't yet found a good, historically Protestant church yet that fits what I believe to be historical ecclesiology (synodical episcopalian, like the Catholic Church except minus the Pope) practice (by that, I mean liturgy and frequency of the Eucharistic Celebration - the only Presbyterian church in my city that I know of only celebrates Holy Communion once every quarter), and soteriology. At the moment, though, I'm leaning Lutheran, as I've found a Lutheran church that I quite like.

Why do you ask? [/quote]
Hmm ok. So your picking and choosing, what you like. Good luck.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 2 2004, 11:17 PM'] Hmm ok. So your picking and choosing, what you like. Good luck. [/quote]
I am NOT. I believe that churches today contain some admixtures of error and truth, but as long as they preach the true Gospel, they are acceptable to God and part of His Bride. The Bride of Christ is not measured according to ecclesiastical boundaries, but according to the unity of believers.

I'm not picking and choosing what I like. I'm choosing a church based on what I believe, according to the Word, is correct.

[quote]let me save you the trouble, you won't find one.[/quote] Oh, but I have. The Lutherans and the Anglicans fit the bill quite nicely, though in Canada, the Canadian Anglican Church is painfully liberal. But God knows who are His, and I am confident that He will raise up reformers in that Body who will bring it back to the Word. (If only they'd require strict subscription to the Thirty-nine Articles!!!)

[quote]thus either admit the pope is necessary for the unity of such a synodical church, or start your own church as so many others have done. [/quote] I shall do neither, for neither is necessary.