Justification

[Brother Adam]

Brian,

Division exists today because of man-made doctrine. You are right. Doctrines in Protestantism are modeled often based on that which Protestantism split off - the Catholic Church, with new ideas about what the Bible says that had never before been heard of in all of Christendom for 1500 years. The idea of a symbolic communion was foriegn to every single Christian until Zwingli introduced it in the late 1500's. That means every Christian until the late 1500's believed in baptismal regeneration. Do you assert that all Christians including those who taught it in scripture and the Apostles disciples were wrong until a fanatic came along in the late 1500's? To me that is similiar to accepting the claims of Joseph Smith based on his interpretation of scripture.

You also mention judging the claims of the JW's based on scripture. There is certianly nothing wrong with this. We should be studing the Holy Scriptures daily. They are certianly profitable for much. However, they are not sufficient as the sole rule of faith. And never do they make the claim. I think that most of us would find ourselves extremely out of place in early Christianity. When there was no Bible. Only the Old Testament. And doctrinal truth was given by the Church, not by a majority rules position, or by scholars or teachers. And while there were doctrinal disputes in the early church among different churches, it was settled when the leaders of the Church spoke.

Many Protestant Churches have truth. Aspects of truth can even be found in Islam, such as their belief in one god. There indeed is only one God. The fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church. Catholics don't "judge" other churches or induviduals. We look at doctrine, and if it is wrong, it is wrong. You can't have 200 ideas of what communion is and everyone be right. As I have mentioned before, I have no ills about my Protestant past. It taught me many valuable lessons. You will often find the opposite to be true with Catholics who leave the Church, such as ICTHUS. They are many times harbor great bitter and hatred and even self-righteousness, clearly not Christ like qualities.They are usually angry about something personal (a bad experience), but it is hardly ever due solely to what they believe is an wrong claim by the Church

And you don't always have to answer every question and claim. You're one loan Protestant among a sea of Catholics When I was a Protestant here, I just picked out what interested me, and talked about it. I certianly didn't have time to always answer every claim.

God Bless you on your journey,
Bro. Adam

Bro. Adam

Edited October 28, 2004 by Brother Adam

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, thanks for the nice post. I like the idea of being on a journey, because that is what it is. I love to look at the Bible and search for Truth. I have changed my mind on things from time to time because it was right. I think as you mature in Christ, growth can bring change, actions and sometimes certain beliefs. Anyway, the one thing that struct me is taht you said that the Catholic Church looks at doctrine and wrong is wrong in that respect. However, I think that can be problematic when the doctrine you exaime and judge against, comes from the Bible and Tradition and the Magist., because man is involved in two of those. Also, if the CC establishes the doctrine it stands to reason that other non Catholic fellowships will not be following the doctrine. (I know that was just brilliant)

Adam, I don't believe that baptismal regeneration was taught until the 1500's, but will look further into that becaause I admit I just don't know. I don't see it at all in scripture so I will look into it. Another challange - YIKES!!

More coming,
In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian,

I don't need you to answer all of my questions. I would like to see what you say on the trusted friend one and if you could give me a short response on the other thread about Acts 15, the Bereans and Sola Scriptura that would be great.

[Brother Adam]

Brian,

I'm not sure I completely understand your statement, but let me say that man was involved in the writing of the new testament. The leaders of the Church were given the authority by Christ to be just that, and St. Paul admonishes us to hold fast to Tradition.

On baptism: here are some statements from the early Christian Church:
(I would encourage you to explore www.catholic.com where this came from. I can provide for you for free a cd-rom with the 38 volume set of the writings of early Chrisitans if you would like)




One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.


Justin Martyr



"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).


Irenaeus



"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).


Tertullian



"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).


Hippolytus



"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).


The Recognitions of Clement



"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).


Testimonies Concerning the Jews



"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).


Cyprian of Carthage



"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).


Council of Carthage VII



"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).


Cyril of Jerusalem



"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).


Athanasius



"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).


Basil the Great



"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).


Ambrose of Milan



"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).

"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.
. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).

"You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).


Gregory of Nyssa



"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).


John Chrysostom



"[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).


Gregory of Nazianz



"Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).


The Apostolic Constitutions



"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).


Augustine



"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, lots of information there. All of your qoutes are from men, therefore subject to error. It is funny you wrote this as my pastor said just yesterday, the last thing you(meaning our congregation) needed to hear was his opinion. He was eluding to the fact that he needs to just deliver the Word of God as it is and not with a spin. On John 5, I have said before to make "water" anything but water is too assume a meaning. The Greek word here is just plain old water and is a word just simply making the case for a birth of flesh and a birth of Holy Spirit, as defined in the next verse. To make water here baptism or the word of God is just trying to make a verse say what one wants. The water is birth water and symboloishes the fact that we are born with a "flesh". The second birth is of the Holy Spirit and creates in us a clean heart, that is a soul of light, bound toward heaven, at the "appointed time of death" when the flesh, and all its problems, can be removed. Oops went on longer then I meant to there.

Trusted friend - Thess. I am blanking here, please quote the scripture again and what you think and then I will respond. I know you brought this up before but I couldn't find it sorry.

Oh, I will respond to tradition next if I can.

Adam, I think above I meant to say that I don't believe only Baptismal regeneration was taught until the 1500's. I think that is what some would like to think but I don't see that at all from the writings of the apostles so I can't see that every early believer/leader would get it wrong. Sorry about the lack of substance with this post.

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian:

"Trusted friend - Thess. I am blanking here, please quote the scripture again and what you think and then I will respond. I know you brought this up before but I couldn't find it sorry."

Could Judas have been Jesus's trusted friend? That is the question if you want it more plain. Can anyone who is not of God be called God's (Jesus was God) trusted friend. I am not sure I can make it more clear than that. The scriptures I am asking from you.

Thanks

Thess

[Briguy]

tra·di·tion .
1. The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.
a. A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
b. A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See Synonyms at heritage.
2. A body of unwritten religious precepts.
3. A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
4. Law. Transfer of property to another.

Mark 7:
8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. [9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. [13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:
[6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2 Thess.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thess. 3
[5] And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
[6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
[7] For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
[8] Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
[9] Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

1 Peter 1
17] And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Hi Guys, sorry for all the scripture and for such a long post. You know by now when I include scripture I generally try to give verses around the key verse to show context. In terms of tradition, there is no argument for some formal system of handing down of beliefs, doctrines, leadership, etc… at least there is no scriptural support of this practice. I only found two references in the KJV that had “tradition” as being positive. The rest all say the passing down of “mens” traditions is not a good thing. The verse from Peter says for sure that tradition does not save souls, the blood of Jesus is what does that (I know you believe that also). The only positive tradition verses from the KJV anyway are in 2 Thess. The first one, which is quoted most by those who view tradition as important as scripture, is referring to what the generation who is around when the anti-Christ will need to do. Let’s avoid the rapture topic here. There will be an evil revealed at a point in time. A specific “wicked one” at a specific time. A believer will be challenged as that evil increases, to hold off that evil, Paul sys here to rely on what you know to be true. Stand firm by prayer, worship, etc… as you always have done. This “tradition” verse does not help the case for the passing down of doctrine. Used by itself it is way out of context. The Thess. 3 verse is simply about having a walk in the Lord that mimics what they saw out of Paul and his friends. Paul is saying you have seen us stand firm in our faith so learn from us and carry on the tradition you see from us. It is about firmness of conviction when times are tough and follows the line in a broader sense of the other Thess. verses I discussed first.

Tradition as being equal to God’s word, in terms of importance, is not supported by what we see in scripture, especially in the NT “body” that is “ Holy Spirit driven, not “Law Obedience” driven. In fact, there seems to be more of a warning about “tradition” then there does a support of it.

Trusted friend response to come.

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian,

Wow. I have to tell you it never ceases to amaze me (sorry if this offends) how many excuses those who believe in SS can come up with to write 2 Thess 2:15 out of the Bbile. Sorry if this is blunt but your interprutation of this is a new one on me. I do wonder what commentary you got it out of or is it your own idea? To think that Paul wasn't writing those words for the current day Christians of thessalonica is simply increddible. He doesn't say "so then brethern in the future...".

As for your polling method of x number of verses are in favor of a topic and x number are against I guess we had better reinstitute slavery since the majority of verses are in favor of that. I think a more level headed approach to all of this tradition stuff is the Catholic approach of recognizing that there are different types of tradition. There are traditions that are practices. Now this one is interesting for starters. Do you really think that God is against men washing dishes or hands before they eat? I certainly hope you do these things. Or how about giving all of their money to God and/or the Church.


Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; SELL ALL that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

The problem with the way the Pharasees were following the Corban rule was that they were doing it to shelter there income so they wouldn't have to care for their aging parents. No Jesus was not against the tradition but the imposition of the traidtion over the commandments of God, thus to shelter income in order to avoid the commandment to "honor your father and mother" was an abomination and showed the heart of the pharasees but to give money to the poor and to God as the widow who only had three penies and gave them all is a differnt matter.

But in Catholicism we recognize another type of tradition. That of the one in 2 Thes 2:15, 3:16, AND YOU MISSED ONE.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

This one looks pretty much like it goes well with 2 Thes 2:15 which you try to write off as some future event. Can you do the same with this one? As for nothing about traditions being passed on I think there are a few problems with that. I really would like you to go to my Acts 15 thread. The decision on circumcision was initially passed on by WORD OF MOUTH. It was clearly not sent out in the letter delivered from the council. Further, 2 Tim 2:2 says "what you have HEARD in the prescence of many witnesses, write down so you can pass it along.". Oh wait, it doesn't.

Timothy 2:2
The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Now why doesn't he just write down all of these things for them. Why doesn't he say, well all you really need to do is pass on this book I am writing to you. No Brian I think you are quite wrong both in method and doctrine.

There of course is another type of tradition about doctrines that are passed on that are false. I think Protestantism has a serious problem there since these are traditions that are not apostolic in origen and therefore cannot be traced through history back to the apostles. i.e. they are not prevailing doctines for all time. Sola Scirptura and Sola Fide, non-regeneration in baptism, and symbolic only lords supper are just a few.


Please go to my other thread and answer that thread. I am much more interested in your answer there than the trusted friend thing.

By the way where are the things that John wanted to deliver in pen and ink in his last letter but chose instead to deliver them in person. They sounded pretty important to me.




Blessings

Thess

Edited November 2, 2004 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

By the way, this is an interesting verse with regard to this thread.

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Seems to add a bit of creedence to Hebrew 6 don't you think.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Here's another good one.

Galatians 3:3-4
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?

Hypothetical loss of salvation?

blessings

[thessalonian]

By the way Brian you poll has a serious flaw. The concept of tradition includes handing down or handing on of TRADITIONS, some written, some oral. So those verses that mention handing down or on should be considered as well. I don't have time to do much more than post them right now.


Luke 1:2
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,


Acts 6:14
for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us."


2 Peter 2:21
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.


This stuff really should move over to my other thread.

Blessings

[Brother Adam]

Brian,

Your arguments are collapsing on themself. Of course the writings of men can be subject to error, but that doesn't mean all writing will be in error. Face it, Protestant/non-denominational bookstores are filled with 10's of thousands of books on interpreting the Bible. Men always look to teachers and persons of authority for the interpretation of scripture. Scripture itself is not sufficent or the only text to ever be carried in a Christian bookstore would be the un-translated Bible, for Bible translation itself can be in error.

This is why the Church, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is also left to us. To give us not only the Holy Scriptures but a foundation of teaching of which we can have the assurance that it is correct.

Yes, maybe a minor error here and there can be found in the writings of some of the Church Fathers, but as a whole the first 2000 years of harmony in the writings produced by the Church has made a powerful statement.

[Briguy]

Thess, just for starters.

1 Cor. 11:
1] Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
[2] Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
[4] Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
[5] But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
[6] For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

What we have here is Paul sharing some general "assembly" rules, not doctrine. KJV says ordinances, not tradtion. Again, this is a case of trying to make a verse stand on its own and it just does not work. Paul says here to remember him and the Assembly "blueprint" that he brought. He then goes on to list exactly some of the things he is talking about. In Chapt 12,13,14, he continues with this blue print of how the gathered "assembly" should look.

Thess. I noticed that only once or twice you use more then one verse at a time. It may be cumbersome but try to include sections so we can get a feel for context, as I just showed how important that is. Also, I try to just give my interpretations on sections of scripture but over the years I have read lots of communtaries that I am sure influence what I say. When stumped I will go to communtaries for help.

Not to be off topic, but if we can't rely on ourselves for scripture interpretation why are we told to search the scritures daily. In fact, you would think it would say to be taught by tour ordained leaders daily. I will have to find the verse I am thinking about and post it, with others verses as well (so I don't break my own rule).

I will skip the trusted friend and look at other things here and the other thread, which I have not really looked at yet.

In Christ who saves,
Brian

[thessalonian]

"What we have here is Paul sharing some general "assembly" rules, not doctrine. KJV says ordinances, not tradtion. "

How ever did you come to this conclusion if you don't mind. "be like me in ALL THINGS" does not include Christlike charity which is certainly doctrinal? Ordinances do not include God's commandments and these are optional practices and not doctrine? The greek word is a form of paradosis by the way which is tradition. The head covertings thing is a PRACTICE certainly which I think I spoke of with regard to a type of Catholic tradition. But I highly doudt that is what Paul is praising them for "Oh you wear head coverings you women, very nice. I praise you for it". The word but indicates a transition to a different topic it seems to me. I praise you for holding the ordinaces but it seems to me that some of you are not wearing head coverings when you prophesy. This teaching of his carries with it doctrinal elements of course such as Christ being the head of the Church so I do not see how you can be so conclusive in your assessment.
Brian I hate to bring this up but it seems to me that your false tradition of Sola Scriptura forces you to nullify the word of God in many places. I am being as gentle as I can about it. Now you show me where having sacred oral traditions force me to nullify the word of God. I challenge you on this. My belief in sacred oral tradition increases my faith in Christ.

You have Bibles, I have no problem with you looking up the verses and seeing the context. Anyone else may as well. I am not trying to hide anything but my posts tend to be rather long and I try quote scripture alot. They are going to get a bit unwieldy.

As for your question about trusting your own interprutations I would suggest you look at Proverbs 3:5 and Jer 3:15.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

Now of course a Part of trusting in the Lord is reading his word. But as you said above we get alot of what we believe from commentaries. In fact I would bet you it's alot more than you will ever admit. Enter Jer 3:15

Jeremiah 3:15
"Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding.

But these shepherds cannot be any old shepherd throwing out any dogma. God's Church worships in "spirit and in truth". So it is not to all come from the Bible and a part of relying on the Lord is relying on him to send good shepherds as well.

Blessings




God bless

Edited November 3, 2004 by thessalonian