Justification

[Brother Adam]

Of course, which is why it is impossible to be redeemed through any old Covenants. As the book of Hebrews tells us even abraham was saved by faith. His faithfulness was credited to him as righteousness. To adhere to the Old Covenant principles for salvation is to adhere to a works based salvation, thus meriting our own salvation. This is the point I was trying to make.

Welcome to the Phatmass forum. Are you a Protestant?

[Svjatyj_Boze]

Ok, sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that in Old Testament times people were saved by works of the law, but now works of the law no longer save. Thanks for the clarification. No, I am not a Protestant.

Speaking of "credited" I'll be doing a lexical analysis of [i]logizomai[/i] soon. Briguy should find it interesting.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Oct 18 2004, 08:00 AM'] (oh, btw, Cure, I am a social worker too!  I knew there was something about you I liked)

[/quote]




[quote]Cure, what kind of SW do you do?? [/quote]

I have done mostly foster care for the past 5 years although I am now doing a lot of investigations of abuse and neglect. How about you?

For the next week or two I am not going to have a lot of time. I am going to be posting on a pro-abortion site. Do some Christian guerilla warfare if you know what I mean. Going to try to bring the light of Christ. I have taken a brake from it to get grounded again. But I think that I am ready to go back into the valley of darkness. You can come with, if you like?

Edited October 21, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Briguy]

Hi Cure, For the past four years I have been a case manager/social worker for physically disabled and elderly folks. I basically try to hire services and other things to keep people in their homes instead of going to nursing homes. Before this (for 14 1/2 years) I supervised a team of people that did job placement and long term support for people with developmental disabilities. Anyway, my new job can be heart breaking at times but yours sound like it would be quite a bit more heart breaking. Abuse cases can be so troubling. There is a reason though that you do the work you do and that is because you can (I know you will understand that when most others won't).

Adam, very good post. you said:
"We are giving God our whole lives and being made adopted sons of God in return. We are entering into the family of God. Literally. The family of God is to be bonded and united not only in a local congregation of faithful believers, but as a whole."

I could not have said that better, Adam. Not only are we adopted but we are grafted in to God. When a skin graph is successful it becomes one with the area it was gratfed into. The graft no longer has an idenity of its own. It was a piece of skin, by itself and alone. Once grafted, it becomes what it was grafted on to. If skin is grafted on to a leg it becomes the leg, it is no longer on its own, it gets all the benefits that all the other skin gets and cannot be seprated from the leg, in fact it certainly can't leave the leg (that was a poor example of my point, I know) What I am trying to say is that we are FULL Children of God, once we are saved.

Adam, you said that Christ is the head of one United Body. I believe that as well, but what is the "body" united by and what is it not. We are united by the blood of Christ and our belief that Jesus died, and rose again, so our Sin could be forgiven. Faith and trust in God unite ALL believers. Differences in practice and unspecified doctrine never binded people together. Scripture teaches that we do not have to do all things alike. It is plainly taught that there will be things that are wrong to me that are not wrong for you. If I really believe that it is a sin to watch a certain TV program then for me it is a sin to watch it but it may very well not be for you. We are called to examine ourselves to find fault and what you find as a fault in you may be different then what I find as a fault in me. We are told not to do certain things around some people as not to be a stumbling block but it is implied that it may not mean the thing we don't do, is sin. As to how we worship, types of music, readings, volume of preaching to scripture reading, etc... those are just minor differences. There are probably huge differences in Catholic churches in different parts of the USA and also in the world. Christ wants unity, in that He wants our faith, trust, and our lives (as you have pointed out).

Look at the problems in the churches that John pointed out in Revelations. I said this before, there were things by 90AD that were wrong in every local church that John wrote to. Jesus had something against every one. Look how messed up the assembly in Corinth was by about 50AD. The assemblies of the eariest church times were all different, yet united by the common ground of faith and trust in Jesus Christ. That is why I sense a oneness with you and Cure, even Grant, because we all love and long to serve Jesus. I will never let little things mess up my unity with others. I see this all too often. I know people who are so into whats wrong with all other types of churches, they never open their eyes to see whats right.

More to come, I hope!

In Christian love,
Brian

[Briguy]

Cure, tell me the site and I will check it out!

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Oct 21 2004, 08:06 AM'] Cure, tell me the site and I will check it out! [/quote]
Hey Briguy,

Are you the same Briguy who was over at BaptistBoard.com. If so welcome. I don't post here alot but make sure I check in about once every couple weeks. I got booted from BB for posting Catholic doctrine . It's allowed over here.

Good to see you

Blessings

[thessalonian]

Briguy,

One comment on the extent you take the grafting analogy. Branches are what is grafted in to a tree. Yes, we become what the body is. We become a part of the tree or the vine. But there is another verse which says that he is the vine and we are the brances. Now branches can be broken off and cast in to the fire if they bear no fruit. Right?

Romans 11:18-21
do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

John 15:6
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Better bear some fruit.

Blessings to you

[Briguy]

Hi Thess. yes it is me from the Baptist board. I think I heard about this site from Adam and now I seem to post at least one thing per day. Hope all is well with you.

The verse from John does not help your argument because those who are cast out are not attached branches to begin with. The Romans verses are good and will require more thought before I try to answer. My first look at those verses I see an anology in terms of God's chosen people, the Jews. Unbelieving Jews will be cast out of their natural position, of being God's chosen people, and us Gentiles by belief can be grafted in and become one of God's chosen people. It is the last phrase, that you capitalized that is troubling me so let me think more and see if I am looking at it wrong. I think I will look at another translation or two as well. Thanks for the challange.

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

[thessalonian]

"The verse from John does not help your argument because those who are cast out are not attached branches to begin with. "

Actually I don't hold to this belief so neener neener is not is not. It seems a very large strech to me to have the Pslams talk about Judas as Jesus trusted friend and yet to say that he never had faith. Especially if Jesus said "you are my friend if you keep my commands". How could Jesus (God) be fooled and call Judas "trusted friend".

[9] Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted,
who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.


So I would like you to back up a bit before you interprut Rom 11 by an assumption that seems to me to be quite false. I am aware of the verse in John's letters that says:

[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

To me this simply says that they did not have the grace of perseverence. It does not say they never believed.

Blessings

[DojoGrant]

Brian,

How can you say the branches in John 15 are "not attached branches to begin with?" Jesus says "Remain in me, as I remain in you" which necessarily implies that you were once "in him," and hence, a branch on the vine. You cannot remain somewhere where never were.

I'm going to have to see you better explain how you can claim they were never there. All the verses leading up to six imply no such thing that I can see.

[thessalonian]

"I could not have said that better, Adam. Not only are we adopted but we are grafted in to God. When a skin graph is successful it becomes one with the area it was gratfed into. The graft no longer has an idenity of its own. It was a piece of skin, by itself and alone. Once grafted, it becomes what it was grafted on to. If skin is grafted on to a leg it becomes the leg, it is no longer on its own, it gets all the benefits that all the other skin gets and cannot be seprated from the leg, in fact it certainly can't leave the leg (that was a poor example of my point, I know) What I am trying to say is that we are FULL Children of God, once we are saved. "

One problem with this analogy. The grafting the Bible speaks of is the grafting of trees. They wouldn't have had a clue about skin grafting back in those days. Now with trees, branches are grafted on to the trunk. This is what the Bible referes to. In this case the analogy is that the grafted branch begins to take it's nourishment from the trunk. However, the graft does not become the same tree that the trunk. Further grafts can be cut off.

Blessings

[thessalonian]

"It is the last phrase, that you capitalized that is troubling me so let me"

Methinks that is why it is in caps. :

[Briguy]

Hi Guys, First to Thess. on Romans 11:21. Grant I will look at the John verses and offer something later. You made a good point and I want to take time to address it properly.

Thess. I cheated a little to figure out the Romans verses you used. I read a couple classic communtaries and then it clicked, like a light switch turning on in my head. I only saw a couple things and then I knew what the versese were about. The tree anology is not an individual anology. The natural branches, Isreal (the chosen people) started out on the tree and were broken off (individually or otherwise) for their unbelief. There could even be an argument for them being broke off as a people, which brings us back to Acts 2:37,38 and the, What should we do? question. Anyway, when Jesus died and rose, Gentiles as a whole were now welcomed to God and grafted into God, the tree of life. The verse is saying that like Jews who don't believe, and are broken off, you will get the same treatment, that being, that you Gentiles will also be broken off and cast away, if you have unbelief. This way of looking at it could work for "Jews" and "Gentiles" as whole groups or as individuals among the groups. Sorry I had to dig deeper then my own brain to get me started on that answer. I really believe that is a very good way to explain those verses and it totally supports what I have been saying.

Thess. You are right that they wouldn't have known about skin grafting at that time. Point well taken.

In Christ,
Brian

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Oct 21 2004, 08:04 AM'] Hi Cure, For the past four years I have been a case manager/social worker for physically disabled and elderly folks. I basically try to hire services and other things to keep people in their homes instead of going to nursing homes. Before this (for 14 1/2 years) I supervised a team of people that did job placement and long term support for people with developmental disabilities. Anyway, my new job can be heart breaking at times but yours sound like it would be quite a bit more heart breaking. Abuse cases can be so troubling. There is a reason though that you do the work you do and that is because you can (I know you will understand that when most others won't).

In Christian love,
Brian [/quote]

Much respect to you Briguy, 14 years is very impressive in this line of work because of the stress. I have only been doing it for 5 years. I know for myself I have lasted this long by laying down the stress at the foot of the cross in my mind when I am stressed out. I tell Christ that I will pick it up again tomorrow with his help. I would guess you do the same type of thing doing your job for 14 years. God bless you and your vocation.

I am going to start to post tonight. Here is the site.

[url="http://www.prochoicetalk.com/message-board-forum/forum-13.html"]http://www.prochoicetalk.com/message-board...m/forum-13.html[/url]

You don’t have to post there; it looks like there are people here who will pick up the discussion while I am gone.

Edited October 22, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Brother Adam]

Hi Brian! I wanted to also thank you so much for your work these last 15 years. I have friends who are new to the SW field and through talking to them, I have learned how hard and demanding the work can be. Thank you for your hard work!

Okay, I have just a few things to add:

[quote]We are united by the blood of Christ and our belief that Jesus died, and rose again, so our Sin could be forgiven.[/quote]

To an extent, yes we are united in that belief, however, unity should not stop only here.

[quote]Differences in practice and unspecified doctrine never binded people together. [/quote]

You are right, differences in practice cannot unite or bind people together. But what I propose is not differences in discipline, but differences in doctrine. Think about it. All around the world, only minor differences in discipline can be seen in any given Catholic Church. All 15 geographical rites, all 1 Billion Catholics share the exact same faith. That is a POWERFUL statement of unity. In the hundreds of different Protestant sects we see thousands of different interpretations on some of the very basic Christian doctrine. Everyone believing they are being lead by the Holy Spirit. But it just isn't true. The Holy Spirit is not an author of confusion. He doesn't lead people into over 200 doctrines on the Lord's Supper. If we are going to be Christians and believe in absolutes, there is only one true teaching on the Last Passover and its implications for our lives.

On your comment on the Churches in Revalation. Christ did not address them "And you! The Baptist Church! And to you the Methodist Church! And to you the Catholic Church!" He addressed them only by geographical location. He addressed each church as an entity.

[quote]Scripture teaches that we do not have to do all things alike.[/quote]

In matters of discipline yes. In matters of faith and morals, no. If one Church has oak pews and another has no pews, oh well. But if one Church teaches that the power of Christ is only as a good teacher and one teaches he is Savior, then there is a serious problem.

[quote]There are probably huge differences in Catholic churches in different parts of the USA and also in the world. Christ wants unity, in that He wants our faith, trust, and our lives (as you have pointed out).[/quote]

In faith and morals, there are no differences in the Catholic Church anywhere in the world. This is why when people take it upon themselves to find new interpretations to the scriptures they end up falling under three catagories: schism, apostasy, heresy.

When Christ prayed for unity, he knew of the coming persecution of the Church. he wasn't praying for the salvation of His Church. This would be absurd. He was praying for a paticular unity. He was praying for unity in [u]our faith[/u]. What happened in Acts every time laymen took it upon themselves to come up with doctrine? St. Paul usually sent off a letter admonishing them. It was a particular authority that taught the disciples in the Bible. It was not open for everyone to interpret scriptures of the OT however they saw fit and come up with doctrine for the Church. That is why it is crucial that Christ delegated authority, gave them power to pass that authority on, and gave them specific powers within the authority that they were given.

So yes, while our faith in Jesus Christ for our redemption does unite us on some fronts, there is still disunity among the people of God as laymen continuly take it upon themselves to try to figure out what the scriptures say for themselves believing that they will always come to the correct conclusions.

You believe you can look to the scriptures and reasonably come up with the correct answers to things like "Is the Lord's Supper meant to be a sacrament or ordanience?" And I totally understand that position. I was there once. But with how many times the scriptures have been translated, with how much cultures have changed, with how words have new meanings, even in the times of the reformers, that we can necessary know we are taking everything into account that we need to.