Justification

[Briguy]

Just wanted to point out I am not as dumb as my typos might make you think. Every time I re-read my posts it is past the time to edit and I feel bad about all the mistakes. Like above I put has for as, I really do know the difference.

Adam, Thanks for the nice post and compliment. I have a response but will have to write it later.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

No problem Brian. I don't have time to edit posts for typos either so bad spelling shows! While it's great we can gather here for discussion and debate, I know we all have other, often much more important things going on in daily life. I don't fault anyone for bad grammer on a message board. If you are writing a book, then I may jump on your case

My last post was not so much an apologetical post, but me just writing what came to mind from what I wrote.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Oct 4 2004, 04:52 PM'] Just wanted to point out I am not as dumb as my typos might make you think. Every time I re-read my posts it is past the time to edit and I feel bad about all the mistakes. Like above I put has for as, I really do know the difference.

Adam, Thanks for the nice post and compliment. I have a response but will have to write it later.

In Christian Love,
Brian [/quote]
Brian if you ever want something really corrected send me a correct version and I will edit for you.
cmom

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]Cure, we are one in Christ, and we put on the Father's holiness when whe put on Jesus (so-to-speak). When Jesus said to be Holy as His Father is Holy, he was not talking about a oneness that comes from actions, for we cannot achieve absolute holiness while we are in these bodies. He was speaking of the holiness that the Father has, being our holiness when we trust Christ by faith. We are one in unity with Christ when we have been declared forgiven and the Holy Spirit indwells us. We are Holy with the holiness of the father because we have trusted the perfect holiness of the son to free us from sin. It is the same thought in John 17. We, believers or the elect, are given as a gift from Father to son. We are a perfect gift because we are cleansed by the blood of He who we are being given to.[/quote]


The problem is that the world cannot see a spiritual “putting on Jesus”. If it is not a, “oneness that comes from actions” then how could this oneness be a proof to the world that the Father sent Jesus and that the Father loves the world? It has to be something that is visible in some way but your explanation is not. The passage is also talking explicitly about truth and being consecrated in truth.

[quote]Paul and Peter diagreed on the doctrine of the Gentiles, and where they fit in. [/quote]

Actually, Paul and Peter did not disagree in their doctrine about the Gentiles. The problem was that Peter was not practicing what he was preaching. If you look Peter was the first to get the revelation that it was ok to eat food that was “unclean”. Peter was the first to preach to the gentiles. Peter was the first to baptize a gentile. And Peter was the person who settled the matter at the council of Jerusalem. Peter even gave his “right hand in partnership” for Paul to preach to the gentiles (Gal 2:9). And Peter in his second epistle does not denounce his writings but just the opposite. He only says that there are some things that Paul writes that are “hard to understand";


[quote]14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also [b]our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him,[/b] wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures,[b] to their own destruction.[/b] 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. (2 Peter 3:14-16) [/quote]

I have more to say but I have to go to teach confirmation class. God bless

Edited October 4, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]Yes there were problems with the early churches, writers, theologians, and so we can’t rely on the works of the “early fathers” to be truth or proof of anything. The Bible is our proof on earth because men so easily corrupt as we see by 90AD in church after church.[/quote]

There were problems then in the Church and there are problems now in the Church. My point is that there is unity then and now in the Catholic Church and the holy Spirit has been guiding the Church to “all truth” (John 16:13).

How do you know that Jesus wanted a New Testament? We do not know of any command of Christ to write a New Testament. If we cannot depend on the Church then how do we know? How do we know what books are inspired by God? How do we know that the Bible is Jesus’ word? If you are not relying on the Tradition of the Church then please tell me how you came to knowledge of it. What connects the New Testament to Christ if it is not the Church?

I have a lot of respect for the early Fathers. Some of them studied under the apostles and they were willing to die for Christ. And when they all agree on a doctrine then it holds a lot of weight with me but more importantly to the Church.

The Church that Christ established is the pillar and found of truth (1 Tim 3:15) and when the bible is taken off this foundation and placed on the man made foundation of each individual being the final authority then major problem arise and the body of Christ is torn apart.

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, you wrote:

"Those who cry Lord Lord, but do not do the Father's will are cast away. "

Jesus said to those folks he will say, "I never knew you" meaning they were never His because He also says in scripture that His sheep here His voice and follow Him. We are cast away for not knowing Jesus, better yet for rejecting Him as he draws us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Adam, I reject Purgatory because it is not mentioned in the Bible and because I believe to be absent of this body is to be changed in the wink of an eye and to be present with the Lord. Also, Jesus washed me (the fabric of my being) clean with His blood and my future Sin cannot stick to fabric that He has washed perfectly. You see, Jesus can only do things at the level of perfection because He is God and everything God does is perfect. I can't need purgatory because I am clean in God's sight already, cleansed by the very blood of the Lamb. Keeping with the fabric thought, it is like the very best "stainmaster" that could be put on cloth, no matter what is spilled on it the stain won't stick. No matter what I do, the stain of Sin can never stick to me again. That is the perfect washing from a perfect sacrifice. Oh Sin where is your sting? Oh death where is your victory? (gone by the power of the Lamb)
"There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"

Adam, hope that answered your question.

Adam, was man really saved by a system of Law in the OT? Think on Abraham, what was he saved because of??

In Christ, our Lord,
Brian

[Briguy]

Cure, "on putting Jesus". There is two things going on here. Being Holy in God's sight comes from putting on the Holiness given by Jesus when we trust in him, by faith. That Holiness is what God sees and is in our relation to our salvation. Holiness, by actions is what the world sees. This thought is how we started this justification discussion. To be justified to men, we "show" our faith and commitment to Christ. We let our light so shine before others. The Holiness we put on for salvation is the Holiness that covers and clears away our sin and allows us a relationship with God, free from the wall of Sin that used to stand between us and God. Our hearts are covered with the very Holiness of God and that is how we, though imperfect are seen as perfect and can enter Heaven and be with God directly. I don't know that we are too far apart on this.

More to come,
In Christ,
brian

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Oct 5 2004, 09:41 AM'] Hi Adam, you wrote:

"Those who cry Lord Lord, but do not do the Father's will are cast away. "

Jesus said to those folks he will say, "I never knew you" meaning they were never His because He also says in scripture that His sheep here His voice and follow Him. We are cast away for not knowing Jesus, better yet for rejecting Him as he draws us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Adam, I reject Purgatory because it is not mentioned in the Bible and because I believe to be absent of this body is to be changed in the wink of an eye and to be present with the Lord. Also, Jesus washed me (the fabric of my being) clean with His blood and my future Sin cannot stick to fabric that He has washed perfectly. You see, Jesus can only do things at the level of perfection because He is God and everything God does is perfect. I can't need purgatory because I am clean in God's sight already, cleansed by the very blood of the Lamb. Keeping with the fabric thought, it is like the very best "stainmaster" that could be put on cloth, no matter what is spilled on it the stain won't stick. No matter what I do, the stain of Sin can never stick to me again. That is the perfect washing from a perfect sacrifice. Oh Sin where is your sting? Oh death where is your victory? (gone by the power of the Lamb)
"There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"

Adam, hope that answered your question.

Adam, was man really saved by a system of Law in the OT? Think on Abraham, what was he saved because of??

In Christ, our Lord,
Brian [/quote]
Souls are not coated with teflon.

If you go out today and murder someone that WILL stick to your soul, and you will be judged for it accordingly.

[DojoGrant]

Brian,

Do you realize what you just said? It's really the bulk of the whole debate.

You said, "and that is how we, though imperfect are seen as perfect and can enter Heaven and be with God directly."

We are "seen" as perfect and thus enter into Heaven. Scripture directly contradicts you, which says that nothing UNCLEAN can enter Heaven. Not by appearance, or cloaking, but in actuality. Catholics believe that the clean enter Heaven. You just preached that those who aren't clean but are "seen" as clean enter Heaven.

[Briguy]

Grant, good point. I hate when that happens. I guess I didn't say that as well as should of. Here is my point in a better way, I hope!

Paul clearly teaches in Romans there is a war between his flesh and his inner self. We wear our flesh but it is not the real us, right? Paul clearly is bound for Heaven yet he says he does what he doesn't want to do and doesn't do what he should, and then says, he is wretched. You see, what is washed clean and is perfectly clean, is not this flesh but our soul, our inner self. The soul of a Christian IS PERFECT and accepted by the Father the moment we trust Christ, by faith, to forgive our sins, or should I say, Sin. This old and tired body I will lay down some day. It's stain of sin will stay with it. It will decay and go away. As I lay my body down, my soul, the real me, which is cleansed forever by Jesus goes to be with God. The soul is perfect, the flesh, which causes me to sin, is not. That is why sin has no more sting. Oh sure I will commit them, hopefully much less then I did, but the sting is gone. Death has no more victory, as it did before I was saved. The victory now belongs to everlasting life, given to those who are true children of God.

Grant, did I clear that up?

MOP, based on what I just said, the Christian Soul has the best teflon of all, made with the blood of the Lamb. The flesh however doesn't have the teflon and that is why it stays behind.

I will go further with this if needed. Thanks, as always for the great discussion.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

Edited October 5, 2004 by Briguy

[Brother Adam]

The misunderstanding here lies in that somehow you believe our physical flesh is where sin takes place and our soul is apart from that, affected by the physical nature of our flesh, only if we are not in Christ.

This doesn't make any sense though. It is as if you are promoting the pharisees in your explaination: the inside is filthy but the outside is covered by Christ.

This however does not jive with the message of the whole New Testament. Sin affects our soul before justification and after justification. Our liberation from sin - that is, our salvation, does not end with an acceptance of Christ as a Messiah. It begins with the adoption of the soul in baptism, and continues throughout ones life as they work out their salvation in fear and trembling and is then complete when they enter heaven. We do not enter heaven as filthy sinful creatures merely covered by Christ, but new creatures with clean souls. It is the only way for us to not only enter heaven, but remain in heaven.

Thus the difference between infused and imparted

[quote]
BIBLICAL OVERVIEW OF JUSTIFICATION AND SALVATION

Is Luther's Justification Justifiable?

I. INTRODUCTION / DEFINITIONS

1. JUSTIFICATION
Not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man . . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
{Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Jan. 13, 1547, chapters 7,8}
Justification, according to Catholicism and Trent, is a true eradication of sin. On the other hand it is a supernatural sanctifying and renewal of the inner man. Protestantism's teaching of the merely external imputation of Jesus Christ's justice was rejected by Trent as heretical. Catholicism holds that true faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works, without which spiritual growth is impossible. In this way, good works are necessary for salvation. Such a statement and view makes Protestants uncomfortable. Without denying the importance of good works, Protestantism tends to see them as symptoms of the necessary imputed justification, rather than as necessities in their own right.

2. SANCTIFICATION
Being made holy. The first sanctification takes place at baptism. The second sanctification is a lifelong process in which a person already in the state of grace grows in the possession of grace and in likeness to God by faithfully corresponding with divine inspirations. The third sanctification takes place when a person enters heaven and becomes totally and irrevocably united with God in the beatific vision.
{John Hardon}

3. GRACE
The condescension or benevolence shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited, supernatural  gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. G, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim.
{John Hardon}

4. MERIT
Divine reward for the practice of virtue. It is Catholic doctrine that by his good works a person in the state of grace really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from God. The meritorious work must be morally good. Merit depends on the free ordinance of God to reward with everlasting happiness the good works performed by his grace. On account of the infinite distance between Creator and creature, a human being alone cannot make God his or her debtor, if God does not do so by his own free ordinance.
{John Hardon}

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be performed meritoriously.
{Second Council of Orange, 529 A.D.}

5. MORTAL SIN
An actual sin that destroys sanctifying G and causes the supernatural death of the soul. The transgression of a divine law in a grievous matter with full knowledge and consent.
{John Hardon}

6. VENIAL SIN
An offense against God which does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace. It is called venial (from venia, pardon) because the soul still has the vital principle that allows a cure from within.
{John Hardon}

Venial sin can result, e.g.,  when one violates a divine law without full consent or knowledge.

II. REASONED CATHOLIC EXPLANATIONS OF JUSTIFICATION

1. The deepest split in the history of Christianity originated in a misunderstanding. Even if Protestants and Catholics disagree about the relationship between faith and good works, they both agree that (1) Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation and (2) we are absolutely commanded by God to do good works. Catholicism does not teach that one is saved by good works apart from wholly unmerited grace from God, or apart from faith or the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. Rather, the Catholic view is that faith and good works are intrinsically and inevitably intertwined, as St. James clearly states ("faith without works is dead"). A person cannot save himself by his own works (i.e., not preceded by God's grace and supernatural assistance).

This is Catholic dogma and doctrine, and always has been. The doctrine of "works-salvation" often attributed to Catholicism by unknowing Protestants, is a heresy known as Pelagianism, which was never taught or condoned by the Catholic Church and which was officially condemned by it at the above-mentioned 2nd Council of Orange in 529 A.D. St. Augustine had vigorously opposed it over a century earlier, in strict accordance with Catholic Tradition and theology. To continue to accuse Catholics of espousing this heinous error is dishonest and slanderous for anyone who takes the time to research the true Catholic teaching, as plainly stated in Catholic Church documents such as the decrees of the Councils of Trent and Vatican II, Catechisms, etc.

E.g., Trent states unequivocally:
If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
{Canon I on J, January 13, 1547}

2.
For Luther sin is passion, for Catholics sin is in the will - the act of choice. From the Lutheran point of view the conclusion follows that there can be no freedom from sin in this world. Man is born and dies in iniquity. The utmost he can attain is an assurance that this won't be counted against him - that Jesus Chris's redemptive suffering covers all. Hence justice is only imputed - the Lutheran concept which became the center of controversy.

In Catholic teaching, on the other hand, the work of justification is not limited to the act of faith with which it begins. It is carried on by the use of the sacraments, the life of charity and the practice of good works, so that human nature recovers the spiritual life that was lost by sin and man becomes a new creature.
{Christopher Dawson}

3. According to the Bible, grace and sin are total opposites, like light and darkness, or life and death. The Bible knows nothing of a communication of grace without the corresponding expulsion of sin (see 2 Cor 6:14; Col 2:13; 1 Jn 3:14). According to Calvin (Institutes, III, 12,4), all works of man are before God "impurity and dirt."  This is not the view of the Bible, Christian Tradition, reason, or the instinctive moral law within all of us.

4.
In the Catholic doctrine of merit Protestantism sees a belittling of grace and of the merits of Jesus Christ, a favoring of external sanctification through works, base self-interest, and pharisaical self-righteousness.
{Ludwig Ott}

These are all false perceptions of Catholic teaching, based on misunderstanding, sheer ignorance, or the unfortunate Protestant tendency of "dichotomizing" many theological ideas or practices into mutually-contradictory categories, when in fact there is no need to do so, as in the present case (e.g., faith vs. works; Jesus Christ's perfect merit vs. our relative merits always derived from His; justification vs. sanctification; grace vs. free will; etc.).

5. Many Protestants have approached the Catholic view in their explanations of faith, justification, good works, sanctification and other related topics. C.S. Lewis pondered why Christians seem to emphasize either good works or faith to the exclusion of the other, and concluded, "It does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary . . . If what you call your 'faith' in Jesus Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what He says, then it is not faith at all." A.W. Tozer commented, "The promise of pardon and cleansing is always associated in the Scriptures with the command to repent . . . Apart from obedience, there can be no salvation." Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought that "Good works then are ordained for the sake of salvation, but they are in the end those which God himself works within us. They are his gift, but it is our task to walk in them at every moment of our lives." And John Wesley stated, "I allow, not only faith, but likewise holiness or universal obedience, to be the ordinary condition of final salvation . . . Do not say, 'I can do nothing'. If so, you know nothing of Jesus Christ; you have no faith . . . You must work together with Him, or He will cease working."

III. AN INDEX OF SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCES FOR THE CATHOLIC
    DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

1. Infused Justification (Not Just a Legal Declaration)
2 Sam 12:13        Is 44:22            1 Cor 6:11
1 Chron 21:8      Ezek 37:23          Heb 1:3
Ps 32:5            Jn 1:29              1 Pet 1:2
  51:2,7-10      Acts 3:19            1 Jn 1:7-9 (cf. Mt
  103:12          Rom 2:13              8:3; 11:5; Lk
Is 43:25              5:12-19 (17-19)      7:22)

2. Sanctification Included in Justification
Mt 5:20            1 Cor 6:11          Gal 6:15
  7:16-20        2 Cor 3:18          Heb 12:10,14
Rom 5:17-19              5:17          1 Pet 1:2
    12:20                7:1

3. God's Necessary Preceding and Enabling Grace
Jn 6:28            1 Cor 15:10        Phil 2:13
1 Cor 3:9          Eph 2:8-10

4. Works (Along With Faith) Necessary For Salvation
Mt 7:16-27 (21,24,26)  Acts 26:20    Phil 3:10-14
  16:27                Rom 2:5-13    1 Tim 6:18
  25:31-46 (35-36)    1 Cor 3:8-9    Titus 3:5-8
Lk 18:18-25 (18,22)          15:58    Heb 6:10
Jn 6:27-29              Gal 6:7-9

5. Faith and Works Two Sides of the Same Coin
Jn 6:27-29        1 Cor 15:10        Heb 5:9
Acts 10:35        Gal 5:6                10:23-24
Rom 1:5            Eph 2:8-10          Jas 1:21-27
    2:13          Phil 2:12-13            2:14-26
    6:17          1 Thess 1:3        1 Pet 1:2
    10:16          2 Thess 1:8,11      2 Pet 1:10
    15:18-19      Titus 1:16
    16:25-26            3:5-8

6. Differential Reward / Merit
Mt 16:27          1 Cor 3:8          1 Tim 6:19
Lk 14:13-14              15:58        1 Pet 1:17
Rom 2:5-6          Gal 6:9            Rev 22:12

7. Salvation As a Process (Not A One-Time Event)
Jn 6:27-29        1 Tim 6:18-19      Heb 10:36
Phil 2:12-13      Heb 6:9-12          2 Pet 1:10
    3:10-14

8. Salvation Can Be Lost / No "Eternal Security"
1 Cor 9:27        1 Tim 1:19-20      Heb 10:26,29,39
      10:12              4:1              12:14-15
Gal 4:9                  5:15          2 Pet 2:15,20-21
    5:1,4          Heb 3:12-14        Rev 2:4-5
Col 1:22-23            6:4-6

9. Baptismal Regeneration
Jn 3:5            1 Cor 6:11          Titus 3:5
Acts 2:38          Gal 3:27            1 Pet 3:21
    22:16

IV. BIBLICAL PASSAGES WHICH PARTICULARLY ILLUSTRATE THE
    CATHOLIC DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION AND SALVATION

1. Matthew 7:21  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

2. John 6:28  "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

3. Romans 2:13  "(For not the hearers of the law {are} just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

4. Romans 5:19  "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

5. 1 Corinthians 6:11  "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

6. Ephesians 2:8-10  "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

7. Philippians 2:12-13  "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of {his} good pleasure."

8. Titus 3:5  "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (8) {This is} a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works . . ."

9. Hebrews 3:12-14  "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."  (cf. Heb 6:4-6)

10. James 1:22  "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

11. James 2:14,17-18,21-22,24  "What {doth it} profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? . . . (17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works . . . (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? . . . (24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

12. 1 Peter 1:2  "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ . . ."

13. 1 John 1:9  "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us {our} sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

[/quote]

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, That is quite the post. Very full of information. I will only be able to tackle litle parts at a time. I have said many times that using one scripture verse to prove something is usually not a good thing as it usally messes up the context of the verse. This is true in the first verse that was used fully quoted. Read more of Matt. 7: (KJV)

[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The context here is false prophets. They are evil men who seek to destroy Jesus and the message he brought. They were and are not like me and my beliefs. They are "workers of iniquity", that is purposeful wrong doers. Of course their fruit bears them out because they are not children gone atsray, they are those whom Jesus said "I never new you", not, I knew you and you walked away. This is Jesus talking about false followers of God and followers of other gods. Mathew 7:21 cannot be pulled out apart from the other verses, especially, verse 23 that sums the thought up. Jesus was showing the people of that day what false teachers were (Pharisees, etc...).
Back to what you said first.
"This doesn't make any sense though. It is as if you are promoting the pharisees in your explaination: the inside is filthy but the outside is covered by Christ. "

Did you mean to say that the other way around? If not it is more the opposite. The flesh is filthy and causes us to sin, but the soul, the inner man, the heart of man, is what God sees and is clean but only by the blood of Jesus. What the blood of Jesus cleans is clean indeed( I probably stole that line from somewhere). I am saying what Paul taught in Romans, not in one or two verses but as a whole. Paul knew he was sinning after his conversion but knew that he was one with Jesus. That struggle was bothering him and so he knew it would bother us as well. He explains it by showing us what is new at conversion and what remains until we are with Jesus. God has always required a blood sacrifice for sin, while the blood of animals covered the Sin up, the blood of Jesus, takes away the sin forever. Jesus did what the animals could not. When the animal blood wore off the sin of believers was still there and so another sacrifice was needed. When Jesus shed his blood it washed clean the stain of sin forever. It is not a covering that goes away and needs to be re-sacrificed it is a washing that cleans away the sin forever, from the soul. The battle with the flesh wages on, but the war within the soul has been won, victory over death is complete, and again; Sin has no more sting, and death no more victory. Eternal life HAS to be the victor if death now is not!

More to come......

Hope everyone has a great and blessed day today!

In Christ,
Brian

[Briguy]

Hi adam, another comment from your part of your post. You said that salvation begins with Baptism. In fact you called it the adoption of the soul. Generally in the Catholic Church most people baptized are infants, not all but a far greater number then adults. I do believe that is a fair statement. Here is one of the biggest problems I see with the Catholic faith and this to me is huge. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the USA, and millions if you count the world, who were baptized as babies and want nothing to do with God at all. They do not pray to him, "work" for him, and many don't believe in God at all. If Baptism is the powerful agent you say, why does it have little to no effect on so many.
More to come,
In Christ,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

Hi Brain,

Yes, it is the problem that we run into with message boards. Often time inhibits us from fully answering each other’s posts. Often when I can only answer part of a post people believe I don’t' have an answer or they "win". Naturally, that is hardly the case no matter what side of the coin you are on.

Tonight I would like to tackle the second post, as the first I believe we can clear up as a matter of language, so hopefully someone else can take it.

What you mentioned in your second post is a dramatic part of my whole story going from a young Lutheran to a Baptist for three years and now making a full circle back into the Catholic Church of my infancy.

When I was deeply involved in my Lutheran church attending the National ELCA Youth Convention in St. Louis (35,000 students), I asked the same question about my youth group. Why does it seem that many of my fellow churchgoers aren't on fire for God. Some not really interested at all in God. It all came back to infant baptism for me, and the idea that we are adopted as children of God through our baptisms. And I didn’t have answers.

And also, another thing that has NEVER sat well with me - the idea of a Christian denomination. A Christian group defined by the will of its members. That didn't jive well with the Bible I read and the Jesus that prayed for unity among believers.

The answer to the problem came two fold:

1) The Catholic Church is completely unlike any other Christian group. Orthodox or Baptist. They are the only group to have any truth to tracing itself back to the time of the apostles. All other groups were truly founded by men. From the Baptists to the Lutherans. While the Catholic Church has developed over 2000 years, its doctrine has never once changed from one truth to another. While the Church has gone from a simplistic idea of the Trinity, to entirely complex systematic theology on the Trinity (Development of doctrine) it has never once said, "There is a Trinity" and then said "There is not a Trinity". The Church never said, "Mary was a sinful human like all of us" to "Mary is sinless". To every doctrinal question I've had there has always been an answer - even though sometimes I did have to go dig for it because my questions could not even be answered by some of the best scholars at phatmass.

2) To the idea of denominations, I realized that the Christian family was realized in the Catholic Church. Sinners and Saints alike. Rich and poor. Jew and Gentile. There is diversity in the Catholic Church on Sunday that is hard to match anywhere else. The words “Come as you are to hear the Good News!” are truly seen here. It is a family. And I disagree with Luther that the answer to problems in the Church is to divorce the family. To make an exodus and to spit in the face of the Church. When you are having problems in the nuclear family (mom, dad, kids) you will never see a good therapist say, "Your family needs to be broken up in order to work right". A broken family by definition cannot work right. The Catholic Church has problems. As almost every denomination apart from the Church does. But these problems do not warrant the destruction done to the Body of Christ. If you have never read the stories of St. Therese and St. John of the Cross they bare reading by any Christian. During the time when Luther was in the process of splitting from the Church, these Catholics also saw some of the same problems, but sought reform from within. I just cant’ imagine looking at Protestantism and being able to say, “this is the church Jesus spoke of and hoped for in his prayers”. It isn’t.

So there are many Catholics who do not practice their faith, though I wouldn’t go so far as to say the majority worldwide, I would go so far as to say the majority in the United States, a problem the Church is trying to fix. But the wheels of change turn slowly in the Church. And I hope my work will help aid the solution.

But just because a person chooses later in life to reject their upbringing and their baptism, does not mean that baptism has no affect. Likely, with your theology, you would say just because a Christian believer turns his back on God and goes his own way, does not mean his salvation did not take place (often what I believe you call “backsliding”). Time and time again Protestants who undergo “a born again experience” based mainly on feelings when they “accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior”, but end up leaving the faith. Billy Graham’s personally assistant I believe is a famous example.

Well, I need to leave it there for now, as usual there is so much more to say. Let me close in asking this: Have you read any books written by Catholic authors on the Catholic faith? And if you haven’t, would you be willing if I could send one to you at no cost, so you can gain a better understanding outside of what discussion can offer to learn about Catholic teaching?

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

[Cure of Ars]

Well I ran out of things to say for baptism. I guess we could go back and look more closely at some of the passages that I sighted but I don't know if it will do any good. We seem to be at an impasse. So I guess I will pick up your response to bro Adam. If your tired of talking to me let me know.

[quote]The context here is false prophets. They are evil men who seek to destroy Jesus and the message he brought. They were and are not like me and my beliefs. They are "workers of iniquity", that is purposeful wrong doers. Of course their fruit bears them out because they are not children gone atsray, they are those whom Jesus said "I never new you", not, I knew you and you walked away. This is Jesus talking about false followers of God and followers of other gods. Mathew 7:21 cannot be pulled out apart from the other verses, especially, verse 23 that sums the thought up. Jesus was showing the people of that day what false teachers were (Pharisees, etc...).[/quote]


Context is important but it does no good to grab onto something in a passage to the exclusion of something else. You grab onto the passage being about false prophet but Jesus is talking about two types of trees not just one. There is the rotten tree that barriers bad fruit, the false prophets. But there is also the good tree that bears good fruit, Christians who have been born again and have received God’s spirit.

And to focus on verse 23 at the exclusion of verse 21 does no good as well. Salvation is connected with doing the will of the father in heaven.



[quote]"This doesn't make any sense though. It is as if you are promoting the pharisees in your explaination: the inside is filthy but the outside is covered by Christ. "

Did you mean to say that the other way around? If not it is more the opposite. The flesh is filthy and causes us to sin, but the soul, the inner man, the heart of man, is what God sees and is clean but only by the blood of Jesus.[/quote]

Lets look at the passage the Brother Adam is talking about;

[quote]"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, [b]cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean. [/b]

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every kind of filth. Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing. [/quote]

Jesus is not saying that the outside remains dirty. Instead, with the inside being clean it makes it possible for the outside to be clean as well. The heart is where the root of sin is (Matt 15:16-20) it is not something outside the Christian who sins but inside. Jesus is not talking about the biological flesh when he says heart but the feelings and thoughts. See the following;

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/choice/1097110338-4207.html"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/cho...10338-4207.html[/url]


[quote]I am saying what Paul taught in Romans, not in one or two verses but as a whole. Paul knew he was sinning after his conversion but knew that he was one with Jesus… The battle with the flesh wages on, but the war within the soul has been won, victory over death is complete, and again; Sin has no more sting, and death no more victory.[/quote]

Lets look at what Paul said.


[quote]Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body?  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin. Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: [b]by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,[u] so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us,[/u] who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. [/b]The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace. For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; [b]and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only[u] the Spirit of God dwells in you.[/u][/b]Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [b]But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness.[u] If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [/u]the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, [u]through his Spirit that dwells in you.[/u][/b] Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, "Abba, Father!" The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. [/quote]

When Paul is talking about living in the flesh. He is talking about living with normal human power. Humans cannot follow God without first having God’s grace, God’s own life living in the human soul. This is living in the spirit. We are temples of the holy Spirit. We are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). We are God’s co-workers (1 Cor 3:9). When Paul says being in the spirit he is not talking just about “, the soul, the inner man, the heart of man,” but more importantly the soul that has been born again and received God’s own life, his Spirit.

In context this is not talking about a judicial proclamation that is not true but actually becoming a part of God’s own family in the spirit, ‘you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, "Abba, Father!"’ Because we have God’s spirit in us we are able to fulfill “the righteous decree of the law”. Christians can choose not to live by the Spirit, to reject God’s grace. That is why Paul warns, “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

There is more to be said but this is enough for now.

Edited October 7, 2004 by Cure of Ars