Graven Images

[StColette]

Graven Images

[quote] Heresy of the Catholic Church : Worship of the cross, of Images and relics was authorized in....788 AD [/quote]

In response:

[quote]Sess. XXV of the Council of Trent “Images are not to be worshipped because it is believed that some divinity or power resides in them and that they must be worshipped on that account, or because we ought to ask anything of them, or because we should put our trust in them, as was done by the gentiles of old who placed their hope in idols but because the honour which is shown to them is referred to the prototypes which they represent; so that through the images which we kiss, and before which we kneel, we may adore Christ, and venerate the saints, whose resemblances they bear." [/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04529a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04529a.htm[/url]

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The Cross

Veneration of the Cross did not just begin in 788 but rather was a symbol of Christ's Passion in the earliest of Christian minds. Think of those who witnessed the Crucifixion, would not the a cross bring back a memory of Christ's Passion ? It is no different for Christians today. We learn about Christ's Passion through reading the Gospels and we become witness to the death He endured for us. From that very moment, once we realize what we have just learned we would be unable to look upon a cross the same way without some recognition of Christ's Passion. The Cross is a constant reminder to us of how Jesus was crucified for us and our sins. An ultimate and precious gift that should never be forgotten. The Cross helps us to remember this.

Now as for the history of veneration of the Cross, the first recorded instances are in the 3rd century. In the 3rd century Clement of Alexandria says that the Cross is " the symbol of the Lord." The relationship between the Cross and the faithful early Christians during this time were so closely connected that Tertullian publicly designated the Christians as "devotees of the Cross" The Cross, itself, during this period of time was a symbol of the Christian virtue. Pagans during this period charged early Christians with being as much idolaters as they were. In response early Christians reminded them that their veneration of the Cross is relative worship not latria. St. Ambrose once said: "Let us adore Christ, our King, who hung upon the wood, and not the wood" Christians did not worship the Cross, but they worshipped the one who hung upon the Cross, Jesus Christ. As I've said before the Cross stands as a constant reminder of Christ's Passion, it is a visual aid in remembering what Christ did for us.

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Early Christian Images

The veneration of Christian images did not just begin in 788 AD, in fact some Christian art can be dated back to the first century. The catacombs are filled with many different types of Christian art. The catacombs is covered in pictures of Christ, of the saints, scenes from the Bible etc. Since this was early in the formation of the Church and of Christianity, if the Christians had any fear of idolatry by making these images they would not have done so. Through research it is easy to see that these pictures served as a type of reminder of the history of Christianity and the meaning behind it. Pictures of Christ kept the Christians mindful of the words the He preached and the things that He taught. Images of the Saints, taught them to strive for holiness as those before them did. Scenes from the Bible taught the Word of God. Many Protestants would also be shocked to find many paintings of Mary within the catacombs. She was never forgotten during the formation of the Church because she played such an important role in the beginning of it all. During the time of Constantine, basilicas began to be built and they were filled with wonderful images and statues that once would have been predominately seen only in the catacombs.

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Relics
The word relics comes from the Latin reliquiae (the counterpart of the Greek leipsana) which already before the propagation of Christianity was used in its modern sense, viz., of some object, notably part of the body or clothes, remaining as a memorial of a departed saint.

Christ's cloak cures a sick woman.

Matt. 9:21
20 A woman suffering hemorrhages for twelve years came up behind him and
touched the tassel on his cloak.

Mark 5:28
27 She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak.
28 She said, "If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured."
29 Immediately her flow of blood dried up. She felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction.

[28] Both in the case of Jairus and his daughter (Mark 5:23) and in the case of the hemorrhage victim, the inner conviction that physical contact (Mark 5:30) accompanied by faith in Jesus' saving power could effect a cure was rewarded.

Paul's handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits.

Acts 19:11-12
11 So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul
12 that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

Peter's shadow healed the sick and those with unclean spirits

Acts 5:15-16
15 Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them.
16 A large number of people from the towns in the vicinity of Jerusalem also gathered, bringing the sick and those disturbed by unclean spirits, and they were all cured.

The Souls of the martyrs are placed beneath the heavenly altar

Rev. 6:9
9 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.

[9] The altar: this altar corresponds to the altar of holocausts in the temple in Jerusalem; see also Rev 11:1. Because of the witness . . . word of God: literally, "because of the word of God and the witness they had borne."

Elisha's bones bring a man back to life.

2 Kings 13:21
21 Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet.

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[quote]Such practice is called simply IDOLATRY in the Bible, and is severely condemned. (Read Ex. 20:4-5; Dent. 27: 15; Psalm 1 15).[/quote]

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In this person's refute against Images they offer the following Biblical verses to back up their claim:

Ex 20:4-5

4 You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
5 you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;

This Commandment is not saying that we are not to make images but that we are not to make images and worship them. Catholics, for one, do not worship the statues or images of the Saints; these statues and images are used as a visual aid when praying. It calls to mind the life that the Saint endured and how we should strive to be like them because they are a great example of a Catholic. Viewing images and statues of the Saints helps others to strive to lead a more holy life and thus it brings them closer in their relationship with God.

4, 5. Thou shalt not make . . . any graven image . . . thou shalt not bow down thyself to them--that is, "make in order to bow." Under the auspices of Moses himself, figures of cherubim, brazen serpents, oxen, and many other things in the earth beneath, were made and never condemned. The mere making was no sin--it was the making with the intent to give idolatrous worship.

[url="http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=ex&chapter=020"]http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi...=ex&chapter=020[/url] Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary ( non-Catholic source )

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The key to understand the statement about the images is verse 5: You shall not bow down yourself to them or serve them; ... you shall not adore any image nor serve them, only God is to be adored, and only God is to be served, only God is to be worshiped.

But of course, you can have an image of your wife and children and parents, you can have the image of Lincoln in your money, don't throw it away!... as far as you don't worship them... and you can have an image of Jesus or the angels or the saints, to honor them like you honor your parents placing an image of them in your living room...

God likes images too: He ordered to put two golden querubim on top of the Ark (Ex.25:18), and to make a bronze serpent and set it on a standard to be seen by everybody in the camp (Num.21:8, Jn.3:14)... an image is worth a thousand words.
The Catholic Church never ever has worship any image, not even the one of Jesus, only worships God, Jesus Himself, most specially in the Sacrament of the Eucharist... and the images serve to honor Him and to remind us of Him as much as possible... and the same goes on with any other image of the Virgin or angels or the saints... never ever has the Catholic Church has worship Mary nor the saints nor the angels, but she honors them... the Catholic Church adores and worships only God Himself!.

St. Jerome Bible Commentary [url="http://www.biblia.com/jesusbible/exodus4.htm"]http://www.biblia.com/jesusbible/exodus4.htm[/url]
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Deut. 27:15

15 'Cursed be the man who makes a carved or molten idol--an abomination to the LORD, the product of a craftsman's hands--and sets it up in secret!' And all the people shall answer, 'Amen!'

Psalm 115:1-8

1 Not to us, LORD, not to us but to your name give glory because of your faithfulness and love.
2 Why should the nations say, "Where is their God?"
3 Our God is in heaven; whatever God wills is done.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands.
5 They have mouths but do not speak, eyes but do not see.
6 They have ears but do not hear, noses but do not smell.
7 They have hands but do not feel, feet but do not walk, and no sound rises from their throats.
8 Their makers shall be like them, all who trust in them.

"Idol" is the key word here.

Idol: A false god. [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=idol"]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=idol[/url]

God condemns the making of "idols" meaning false gods.

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Duet 4:15-19

15 "You saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore,
16 not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman,
17 of any animal on the earth or of any bird that flies in the sky,
18 of anything that crawls on the ground or of any fish in the waters under the earth.
19 And when you look up to the heavens and behold the sun or the moon or any star among the heavenly hosts, do not be led astray into adoring them and serving them. These the LORD, your God, has let fall to the lot of all other nations under the heavens;

"You saw no form at all" meaning God had not revealed Himself in any form, thus it would be an abomination to make a image of Him, but God did reveal Himself to us in the New Testament Jesus Christ, God made flesh

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In the following verses the Lord did reveal Himself as a dove, fire, etc.

Exodus 3:2-3

2 There an angel of the LORD appeared to him in fire flaming out of a bush. As he looked on, he was surprised to see that the bush, though on fire, was not consumed.
3 So Moses decided, "I must go over to look at this remarkable sight, and see why the bush is not burned."

Dan 7:9-10

9 As I watched, Thrones were set up and the Ancient One took his throne. His clothing was snow bright, and the hair on his head as white as wool; His throne was flames of fire, with wheels of burning fire.
10 A surging stream of fire flowed out from where he sat; Thousands upon thousands were ministering to him, and myriads upon myriads attended him. The court was convened, and the books were opened.

[9-10] A vision of the heavenly throne of God (the Ancient One), who sits in judgment (symbolized by fire) over the nations. Some of the details of the vision, depicting the divine majesty and omnipotence, are to be found in Ezekial 1.

Matt. 3:16

16 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him.

Mark 1:10-11

10 On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him.
11 And a voice came from the heavens, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

[10-11] He saw the heavens . . . and the Spirit . . . upon him: indicating divine intervention in fulfillment of promise. Here the descent of the Spirit on Jesus is meant, anointing him for his ministry; cf Isaiah 11:2; 42:1; 61:1; 63:9. A voice . . . with you I am well pleased: God's acknowledgment of Jesus as his unique Son, the object of his love. His approval of Jesus is the assurance that Jesus will fulfill his messianic mission of salvation.

Luke 3:22

22 and the holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

[22] You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased: this is the best attested reading in the Greek manuscripts. The Western reading, "You are my Son, this day I have begotten you," is derived from Psalm 2:7.

John 1:32

32 John testified further, saying, "I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him.

[32] Like a dove: a symbol of the new creation (Genesis 8:8) or the community of Israel (Hosea 11:11). Remain: the first use of a favorite verb in John, emphasizing the permanency of the relationship between Father and Son (as here) and between the Son and the Christian. Jesus is the permanent bearer of the Spirit.

the Holy Spirit, the third part of the Holy Trinity, is represented by a dove here, this is also God revealed to us.

Here we see that Christ, is the image of the invisible God, so Christ is God revealed.

Col. 1:13-15

13 He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

[15-20] As the poetic arrangement indicates, these lines are probably an early Christian hymn, known to the Colossians and taken up into the letter from liturgical use (cf Philippians 2:6-11; 1 Tim 3:16). They present Christ as the mediator of creation (Col 1:15-18a) and of redemption (Col 1:18b-20). There is a parallelism between firstborn of all creation (Col 1:15) and firstborn from the dead (Col 1:18). While many of the phrases were at home in Greek philosophical use and even in gnosticism, the basic ideas also reflect Old Testament themes about Wisdom found in Proverb 8:22-31; Wisdom 7:22-8:1; and Sirach 1:4. See also the notes on what is possibly a hymn in John 1:1-18.

[15] Image: cf Genesis 1:27. Whereas the man and the woman were originally created in the image and likeness of God (see also Genesis 1:26), Christ as image (2 Cor 4:4) of the invisible God (John 1:18) now shares this new nature in baptism with those redeemed (cf Col 3:10-11).

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Acts 2:3

3 Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, 3 which parted and came to rest on each one of them.

[3] Tongues as of fire: see Exodus 19:18 where fire symbolizes the [b]presence of God[/b] to initiate the covenant on Sinai. Here the holy Spirit acts upon the apostles, preparing them to proclaim the new covenant with its unique gift of the Spirit (Acts 2:38).

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By God's command images of gold cherubim were to be made. This would be a heavenly image, but this image is not worshiped but it does make the minds of the Israelites' minds to turn to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Ex 25:18-22

18 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory,
19 fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end.
20 The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.
21 This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the commandments which I will give you.
22 There I will meet you and there, from above the propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the ark of the commandments, I will tell you all the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites.

[18-20] Cherubim: probably in the form of human-headed winged lions. The cherubim over the ark formed the throne for the invisible Lord. Cf Psalm 80:2. For a more detailed description of the somewhat different cherubim in the temple of Solomon, see 1 Kings 6:23-28; 2 Chron 3:10-13.

Ex 26:1

1 "The Dwelling itself you shall make out of sheets woven of fine linen twined and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, with cherubim embroidered on them.

[1] Sheets: strips of tapestry, woven of white linen, the colored threads being used for the cherubim which were embroidered on them. These sheets were stretched across the top of the Dwelling to form a roof, their free ends hanging down inside the boards which formed walls.

Ex 26:31-34

31 "You shall have a veil woven of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined, with cherubim embroidered on it.
32 It is to be hung on four gold-plated columns of acacia wood, which shall have hooks of gold and shall rest on four silver pedestals.
33 Hang the veil from clasps. The ark of the commandments you shall bring inside, behind this veil which divides the holy place from the holy of holies.
34 Set the propitiatory on the ark of the commandments in the holy of holies.

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God commands the making of the bronze serpent staff, this image would have been an image of something that dwells on earth, the staff was no worshipped it was however lifted up as something supernatural.

Num. 21:8-9

8 and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover."
9 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.

[8] If anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover: "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that those who believe in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting" (John 3:14-15).
[9] King Hezekiah, in his efforts to abolish idolatry, "smashed the bronze serpent which Moses had made" (2 Kings 18:4).

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Solomon's temple was filled with statues of cherubim and images of cherubim and God did not condemn these images or statues that were used in the temple for worship of God.

1 Kgs 6:23-36

26 and each was exactly ten cubits high.
27 The cherubim were placed in the inmost part of the temple, with their wings spread wide, so that one wing of each cherub touched a side wall while the other wing, pointing toward the middle of the room, touched the corresponding wing of the second cherub.
28 The cherubim, too, were overlaid with gold.
29 The walls on all sides of both the inner and the outer rooms had carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers.
30 The floor of both the inner and the outer rooms was overlaid with gold.
31 At the entrance of the sanctuary, doors of olive wood were made; the doorframes had beveled posts.
32 The two doors were of olive wood, with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. The doors were overlaid with gold, which was also molded to the cherubim and the palm trees.
33 The same was done at the entrance to the nave, where the doorposts of olive wood were rectangular.
34 The two doors were of fir wood; each door was banded by a metal strap, front and back,
35 and had carved cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, over which gold was evenly applied.
36 The inner court was walled off by means of three courses of hewn stones and one course of cedar beams.

1 Kgs 7:27-39

27 Ten stands were also made of bronze, each four cubits long, four wide, and three high.
28 When these stands were constructed, panels were set within the framework.
29 On the panels between the frames there were lions, oxen, and cherubim; and on the frames likewise, above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths in relief.
30 Each stand had four bronze wheels and bronze axles.
31 This was surmounted by a crown one cubit high within which was a rounded opening to provide a receptacle a cubit and a half in depth. There was carved work at the opening, on panels that were angular, not curved.
32 The four wheels were below the paneling, and the axletrees of the wheels and the stand were of one piece. Each wheel was a cubit and a half high.
33 The wheels were constructed like chariot wheels; their axles, fellies, spokes, and hubs were all cast. The four legs of each stand had cast braces, which were under the basin; they had wreaths on each side.
34 These four braces, extending to the corners of each stand, were of one piece with the stand.
35 On top of the stand there was a raised collar half a cubit high, with supports and panels which were of one piece with the top of the stand.
36 On the surfaces of the supports and on the panels, wherever there was a clear space, cherubim, lions, and palm trees were carved, as well as wreaths all around.
37 This was how the ten stands were made, all of the same casting, the same size, the same shape.
38 Ten bronze basins were then made, each four cubits in diameter with a capacity of forty measures, one basin for the top of each of the ten stands.
39 The stands were placed, five on the south side of the temple and five on the north. The sea was placed off to the southeast from the south side of the temple.

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God was pleased with the forefather of David, because he had destroyed the bronze serpent which Moses had made because the Israelites had begun to worship it.

2 Kings 18:3,4

3 He pleased the LORD, just as his forefather David had done.
4 It was he who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. He smashed the bronze serpent called Nehushtan which Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it.

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David gives Solomon plans for an altar that would be created from refined gold and would have cherubim images on it.

1 Chron. 28:18-19

18 the refined gold, and its weight, to be used for the altar of incense; and, finally, gold for what would suggest a chariot throne: the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
19 He had successfully committed to writing the exact specifications of the pattern, because the hand of the LORD was upon him.

[18] Chariot throne: probably suggested by Ezekiel 1:4-24; 10:1-22.

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The house was decorated with goldedn and wooden cherubim.

2 Chron. 3:7-14

7 The house, its beams and thresholds, as well as its walls and its doors, he overlaid with gold, and he engraved cherubim upon the walls. (The gold was from Parvaim.)
8 He also made the room of the holy of holies. Its length corresponded to the width of the house, twenty cubits, and its width was also twenty cubits. He overlaid it with fine gold to the amount of six hundred talents.
9 The weight of the nails was fifty gold shekels. The upper chambers he likewise covered with gold.
10 For the room of the holy of holies he made two cherubim of carved workmanship, which were then overlaid with gold.
11 The wings of the cherubim spanned twenty cubits:
12 one wing of each cherub, five cubits in length, extended to a wall of the building, while the other wing, also five cubits in length, touched the corresponding wing of the second cherub.
13 The combined wingspread of the two cherubim was thus twenty cubits. They stood upon their own feet, facing toward the nave.
14 He made the veil of violet, purple, crimson and fine linen, and had cherubim embroidered upon it.

[14] The veil: at the entrance of the holy of holies, as also in the Mosaic meeting tent (Exodus 26:31-32). Solomon's temple had doors at this place (1 Kings 6:31). Apparently there was a veil here in the temple of the Chronicler's time as there was also in Herod's temple (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45).

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[quote]As an example of contemporary Catholic teaching on this subject one could hardly quote anything better expressed than the "Catechism of Christian Doctrine" used in England by command of the Catholic bishops. In four points, this book sums up the whole Catholic position exactly:

"It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."

"We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."

"We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."

"We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04529a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04529a.htm[/url]

God Bless,
Jennie Catherine

[MichaelFilo]

Still hardworking, still turning out excelent apologetical posts. You rock, this post just solidiifies the fact.

God bless,

Mikey

[StColette]

aww ty Mikey you rock too

[Guest JeffCR07]

great job jennie!

[MorphRC]

Great stuff angelies

[StColette]

thanks guys