Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 03:49 PM'] So, is any part of the Law intended to be our disciplinarian for Christ, to 'chase us to Christ', so to speak? [/quote] No. ICTHUS, I don't buy into the 16th century Reformation notion that God is a punishing and vindictive being who must frighten man into a relationship with Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 Luthers view was that the whole law - the command to 'Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself' was meant to chase us to Christ, because nobody could keep it perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 06:49 PM'] So, is any part of the Law intended to be our disciplinarian for Christ, to 'chase us to Christ', so to speak? [/quote] I answer that with a question: would coming to Christ out of fear be an act of faith? I don't believe so, unless what is meant is faith in the ability of God to punish, but that is not God's angle. If you threaten a person into submission, that isn't real submission, because it's not willed by the subject, it's just chosen as a lesser evil to submit than to be punished. God does not present us with an evil, He presents us with a good. God's Law is not to scare us with damnation, it is to lead us with the goal of salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 23 2004, 05:59 PM'] I answer that with a question: would coming to Christ out of fear be an act of faith? I don't believe so, unless what is meant is faith in the ability of God to punish, but that is not God's angle. If you threaten a person into submission, that isn't real submission, because it's not willed by the subject, it's just chosen as a lesser evil to submit than to be punished. God does not present us with an evil, He presents us with a good. God's Law is not to scare us with damnation, it is to lead us with the goal of salvation. [/quote] We don't come to Christ because we love Him, at first. We come to Him because we fear the Father's Wrath. We love Him THEN, because He is our saviour... Before regeneration, however, we hate Christ - we are the ones who nailed Him to the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 03:58 PM'] Luthers view was that the whole law - the command to 'Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself' was meant to chase us to Christ, because nobody could keep it perfectly. [/quote] Luther was psychologically a rather depressed person. I don't look on the Law as a way of "chasing" man to God. Luther liked to focus on a punishing God, but that is because he tended toward scrupulosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 The Mosaic Law did have a pedagogical value, and so it was intended to teach the Jews that they could not save themselves, but Luther overemphasized the Law as a way of punishing or "chasing" man to God, as if God needs to operate in a rather disingenuous way in order to trick man into coming to Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 04:01 PM']We don't come to Christ because we love Him, at first. We come to Him because we fear the Father's Wrath. We love Him THEN, because He is our saviour...[/quote] We come to Christ because the Father draws us to Him by grace. So, we neither come to Him because we loved Him first, nor because we fear punishment. All is by grace. [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 04:01 PM']Before regeneration, however, we hate Christ - we are the ones who nailed Him to the cross.[/quote] This is a Reformation notion, and so I don't accept it. It's far too Manichaean for me. The Reformers loved extremes, but I don't like them. This idea that all men "hate" Christ is connected to the Manichaean notion of "total depravity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 23 2004, 06:03 PM'] Luther was psychologically a rather depressed person. I don't look on the Law as a way of "chasing" man to God. Luther liked to focus on a punishing God, but that is because he tended toward scrupulosity. [/quote] The reason he was depressed is because he didn't know how to be saved. I'd be depressed too if I saw that God declared His wrath against me if I wasn't perfect... (which Christ has rendered me) Edited August 23, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 23 2004, 06:10 PM'] This is a Reformation notion, and so I don't accept it. It's far too Manichaean for me. The Reformers loved extremes, but I don't like them. This idea that all men "hate" Christ is connected to the Manichaean notion of "total depravity." [/quote] You don't like it, but to the Scriptures teach it? Also, I would posit that our pride being torn down so that we may fear God and come to Christ is all by grace, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 What is the purpose of God's law? hmmm it's a complicated ussue but i'm borrowing from sheed the way i understand what he said. all things have laws of existence, cars need gas and oil in the right amounts in the right places, human bodies need vitamins, food, oxygen, water, etc. Sanctifying grace has laws of existance too, absence of sin, etc. God's law shows us the laws of spiritual life in our souls. e.g. how now to kill the unmerited freely given life of heaven imparted to us in baptism and restored through reconciliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Faith is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace. Grace doesn't destroy nature, it restores, perfects and elevates it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 04:19 PM'] You don't like it, but to the Scriptures teach it? Also, I would posit that our pride being torn down so that we may fear God and come to Christ is all by grace, too. [/quote] Scripture does not teach that unregenerate man is either [i]totally depraved[/i] or that he by necessity [i]hates[/i] Christ. This is a form of Manichaean dualism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 04:18 PM'] The reason he was depressed is because he didn't know how to be saved. I'd be depressed too if I saw that God declared His wrath against me if I wasn't perfect... (which Christ has rendered me) [/quote] Man must avoid extremes, and so, he must avoid the sin of despair in connection with his salvation, but he must also avoid the sin of presumption. In place of these two extremes he should possess the infused gift of hope. Christian hope is not an unfounded "wish" but is instead a hope founded upon God's grace and love. Faith, hope, and love (charity) are all necessary, but as Paul said, the greatest of these is love. "Love bears all things, [b][i]believes[/i][/b] all things, [b][i]hopes[/i][/b] all things, endures all things." [1 Cor. 13:7] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 23 2004, 06:23 PM'] Scripture does not teach that unregenerate man is either [i]totally depraved[/i] or that he by necessity [i]hates[/i] Christ. This is a form of Manichaean dualism. [/quote] Totally depraved? Ephesians 2:1-6, I think, does the job nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 04:34 PM'] Totally depraved? Ephesians 2:1-6, I think, does the job nicely. [/quote] Sorry, but you are interpreting Ephesian 2:1-6 in the light of a 450 year old human tradition that I reject. Nowhere does Scripture teach that human nature is [i]totally depraved[/i], and to assert that it does makes God the author of sin and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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