ICTHUS Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Alright, time for a little scholarship and putting of the money where the mouth resideth, so to speak. According to Roman Catholicism, in the Eucharist, what is the Sign, and what is the thing signified thereby? I think I know what you're going to say, but I want to hear it from you guys before I ask my follow up question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) Something can truly be what it also signifies, if that is what you are going after. ([color=green]Bro. Adam [/color]again - one more time, I'm a sucker for ICTHUS's baiting) Edited August 22, 2004 by Mrs. Bro. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 22, 2004 Author Share Posted August 22, 2004 So, am I correct in assuming that the bread and the wine are the sign, and the Body and Blood of Christ are the thing signified thereby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Agh, in my own login now. . . Not so sure bout this "sign" thing, but the substance of the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, accidents remaining. In Protestant Theology, bread and grape juice are used as a symbolic representation of the body and blood of Jesus shed at calvary - a misunderstanding of the final passover meal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 22, 2004 Author Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) [quote]Agh, in my own login now. . . Not so sure bout this "sign" thing, but the substance of the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, accidents remaining. [/quote] That wasn't what I asked. In the Sacrament of the Altar, what is the sign, and what is the thing signified. [quote]In Protestant Theology, bread and grape juice are used as a symbolic representation of the body and blood of Jesus shed at calvary - a misunderstanding of the final passover meal.[/quote] This is not Protestant sacramentology per se, it is Zwinglian sacramentology. The only Protestants who affirm it are Baptists, and their ecclesiastical ilk. The rest of us who affirm traditional Protestantism (i.e. Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc) affirm some form of real presence. Please argue with this in mind - I do not affirm Zwinglianism, which is a theological abberation. Edited August 22, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Perhaps you are refering to "the sacrifice of the alter"? Maybe you should just "come out with it" so we can get on with the discussion. True, I took you for someone in the reformed group. Then you are what? Lutheran? Anglican? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote] That wasn't what I asked. In the Sacrament of the Altar, what is the sign, and what is the thing signified.[/quote] The sign is the Body and Blood of Christ, under the accidents of Bread and Wine and they signify what they truly are, the Body and Blood of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Consubstantiation is not the same thing as transubstantiation. The Higher Protestant Churches affirm the former, where as it is only Catholics who suscribe the latter. With in the idea of consubstantion, the matter of the bread and wine, still exsist, at the same time Christ is present, according the the Lutherine interpritation. With the Idea of Transubstantiation, the bread and wine no longer exsist, leaving only Christ (and the accidental qualities). This does several things, among many, it keeps us from worshiping bread, and it keeps the matter and form of the Sacrament as Jesus inteaded it to be. He said this is my Body, not this is my body amongest the bread. Thus the symbol is Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:54 PM'] Consubstantiation is not the same thing as transubstantiation. The Higher Protestant Churches affirm the former, where as it is only Catholics who suscribe the latter. With in the idea of consubstantion, the matter of the bread and wine, still exsist, at the same time Christ is present, according the the Lutherine interpritation. With the Idea of Transubstantiation, the bread and wine no longer exsist, leaving only Christ (and the accidental qualities). This does several things, among many, it keeps us from worshiping bread, and it keeps the matter and form of the Sacrament as Jesus inteaded it to be. He said this is my Body, not this is my body amongest the bread. Thus the symbol is Christ. [/quote] Yes. The symbol is Christ and the thing signified is Christ. What else can you expect from God but for Him to be completely honest and humble? See, He comes to us for our sake and signifies Himself not with a banner of heraldry, but simply with Himself as symbol and symbolized. He is that straighforward to us, like the humble man who opens himself entirely and hides nothing, Christ not only lets us see Him for who He truly is, but He represents Himself fully in Himself and by Himself with no additional symbol. He is plain and humble, honest and straighforward. In short, He is who is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 22, 2004 Author Share Posted August 22, 2004 So Christ is a symbol of Himself? What the heck...Im confused.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:02 PM'] So Christ is a symbol of Himself? What the heck...Im confused.. [/quote] "I believe because it is absurd." -Tertullian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I am Who am! -God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-I---Love Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:03 PM'] "I believe because it is absurd." -Tertullian [/quote] Yes!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 22, 2004 Author Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:03 PM'] "I believe because it is absurd." -Tertullian [/quote] Can I see the context of that quote, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:20 PM'] Can I see the context of that quote, please? [/quote] I'll see what I can do, but it was just a little motto. I don't think the context has to do with the discussion at hand...the quote is just a quip that came to mind when you said you were confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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