Did Judas Go To Hell?

[Aloysius]

GF, we believe in a hell and we know people go to hell, that's a fact of our faith. we can't know the fate of certain souls, but it is revealed in the book of revelation that there are those who are eternally damned.

[Good Friday]

[quote]He spoke also of the schemes of the traitor Judas, and the Blessed Virgin prayed for him.[/quote]
This is, above all, what gives me hope that Judas was saved.

[quote name='Aloysius']GF, we believe in a hell and we know people go to hell, that's a fact of our faith. we can't know the fate of certain souls, but it is revealed in the book of revelation that there are those who are eternally damned.[/quote]
I'm not denying the doctrine of hell. In fact, I believe it's entirely possible that there are very many people in hell, but I assert that we as Catholics can have hope that hell is empty. This is not universalism, which denies the doctrine of hell altogether.

As usual, Aloysius, it's not as cut and dry as you'd like to think. I didn't come up with this on my own, it's been explained by several theologians, in particular Hans Urs von Balthasar. Here's a quote from Cardinal Avery Dulles' [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0305/articles/dulles.html"]article[/url] on this theology:

[quote name='Cardinal Avery Dulles' date=' The Population of Hell']The most sophisticated theological argument againt the conviction that some human beings in fact go to hell has been proposed by Hans Urs von Balthasar in his book [i]Dare We Hope "That All Men Be Saved?"[/i]  He rejects the ideas that hell will be emptied at the end of time and that the damned souls and demons will be reconciled with God.  He also avoids asserting as a fact that everyone will be saved.  But he does say that we have a right and even a duty to [i]hope[/i] for the salvation of all, because it is not impossible that even the worst sinners may be moved by God's grace to repent before they die.  He concedes, however, that the opposite is also possible.  Since we are able to resist the grace of God, none of us is safe.  We must therefore leave the question speculatively open, thinking primarily of the danger in which we ourselves stand.

At one point in his book Balthasar incorporates a long quotation from Edith Stein, now Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, who defends a position very like Balthasar's.  Since God's all-merciful love, she says, descends upon everyone, it is probable that this love produces transforming effects in their lives.  To the extent that people open themselves to that love, they enter the realm of redemption.  On this ground Stein finds it possible to hope that God's omnipotent love finds ways of, so to speak, outwitting human resistance.  Balthasar says that he agrees with Stein.

This position of Balthasar seems to me to be orthodox.  It does not contradict any ecumenical councils or definitions of the faith.  It can be reconciled with everything in Scripture, at least if the statements of Jesus on hell are taken as minatory rather than predictive.  Balthasar's position, moreover, does not undermine a healthy fear of being lost.  But the position is at least adventurous.  It runs against the obvious interpretation of the words of Jesus in the New Testament and against the dominant theological opinion down through the centuries, which maintains that some, and in fact very many, are lost.[/quote]
Although Cardinal Dulles disagrees with Balthasar's theological opinion, he finds it orthodox. Moreover, by beatifying and canonizing St. Edith Stein, the Church affirmed that all of her writings, including those on hell, were free of heresy. Thus, while we may certainly be wrong about the possibility that everyone is saved (a fact that we admit), the hope that everyone can be saved is not contradictory to Scripture or Tradition -- this is affirmed by Cardinal Dulles and the Church, inasmuch as she canonized St. Edith Stein and deemed her writings free from heresy.

I agree with St. Edith Stein and Hans Urs von Balthasar. If you don't, that's fine, but please don't try to tell me I'm [i]de facto[/i] wrong, especially when you haven't looked into the issue at all and when you're only going on your private interpretation of Scripture. St. Edith Stein and Hans Urs von Balthasar were not morons, and neither am I.

Edited August 23, 2004 by Good Friday

[Aloysius]

okay i was wrong about Church Teaching.

i have headache.

Edited August 23, 2004 by Aloysius

[MichaelFilo]

That is all good and all, but certain marian appiritions have suggested that there are many people in hell. I would not put my hope against Church accepted appiritions, weather they are a matter of faith or not, they are more valid then speculative theology.

God bless,

Mikey


(Rapheal, you got me beat on that. I thought about it, and you are indeed right, again. I'll have to think before I post)

[Good Friday]

[quote name='MichaelFilo']That is all good and all, but certain marian appiritions have suggested that there are many people in hell. I would not put my hope against Church accepted appiritions, weather they are a matter of faith or not, they are more valid then speculative theology.[/quote]
First of all, Marian apparitions are private revelation, so I am not even bound to believe in them. That said, I do believe in the approved apparitions -- Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima, etc.

I'm not sure it's safe to say that they're "more valid" than speculative theology. Neither is necessary for salvation, and Catholics don't have to believe in them, so I'd think that Marian apparitions are on a par with speculative theology. They're nice, but they're not the deposit of faith. Had the Marian apparitions never occurred, the Church's mission would have gone on and the faith that the Church proclaimed would still have been the same -- as is also the case with speculative theology.

But finally, the Marian apparitions don't necessarily contradict Balthasar's theological opinion here. Balthasar theorizes that when Jesus spoke of hell throughout His public ministry, He may have been using those descriptions more as a warning than a prediction: more like "do this and this will happen," rather than, "this is definitely going to happen." The same could be true of the Marian apparitions. At Fatima, for instance: "You have seen hell, where the souls of poor sinners go." This can be taken two ways: either that the souls of poor sinners have gone there and do go there, or that the souls of poor sinners [i]could[/i] go there. Considering that the Marian apparitions have been primarily concerned with warning us about what could happen if we don't alter our course, I think it's safe to say that Our Lady was using these visions more as a warning in her apparitions rather than a definite prediction or statement of fact.

[Aloysius]

what about the Book of Revelations?

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Aloysius']what about the Book of Revelations?[/quote]
I really don't know, I'd recommend reading [i]Dare We Hope[/i] by Hans Urs von Balthasar. I'm sure, as an orthodox theologian, he has addressed any verses from Revelation that would seem to contradict his opinion. I don't have those answers, though.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would just like to elaborate a little more on the issue of Balthasar's theology.

Personally, I like it very much. It should be noted that it is an appealing outlook on many levels, but, in my opinion, most notably because of its openness. Because it highlights the lack of absolute certitude on the issue, it allows an individual to come to a logical belief without a declaration of fact. I disagree with the Cardinal on the question of Jesus' statements being predictive, because I maintain that such a believe can be reconciled with Balthasar's theology. I hold that one can be certain that hell is not empty yet maintain the uncertainty proposed by Balthasar. I can believe that Jesus's statements were predictive, and believe even that many people are eternally damned. However, as Balthasar and Stein suggest, I profess that it is utterly impossible to know who the damned are (thus being in union with the teaching that only the Father knows who the elect are), and, as a result of this uncertainty I can remain hopeful for any individual soul.

Thus, I can posit that "There must be some souls in Hell, perhaps many, and perhaps even more, however, the soul of Johnny does not need to be among that number, and so I will hope and pray for him."

Again, these are my personal thoughts, and are not in perfect conformity with Balthasar himself, but rather are a blend of his theology and traditional thought.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MorphRC]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 23 2004, 12:58 AM'] We can't know and God isn't telling. [/quote]
He knew this was wrong, and against God. And the law says suicide is wrong, Im sure Christ taught that to him as well! So theres a 99.99% change hes with satan.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 22 2004, 08:55 PM'] He knew this was wrong, and against God. And the law says suicide is wrong, Im sure Christ taught that to him as well! So theres a 99.99% change hes with satan. [/quote]
Ah but he could have repented. We weren't there in his mind. So we don't know.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Aug 23 2004, 06:29 AM'] Everything is possible with God, even the forgiveness of Judas. [/quote]
Yes. Well thats a very liberal view towards this, imo. In other words your saying even though he did all this of HIS OWN FREE WILL, he might still go to heaven, then whats the point of following any of God's laws? We might go to heaven.

You cant use that for everything bro. He broke the law, he broke God's trust in Him, the law is there for a reason, not just decoration.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Aug 23 2004, 12:29 PM'] Ah but he could have repented. We weren't there in his mind. So we don't know. [/quote]
Lots of 'coulds' and 'woulds' dont make it true.

[MichaelFilo]

If not more...

The only thing that leaves a smidget of doubt in my mind, and leaves room for me to hope, is that by hanging, it's not instantanious, and he did it because he felt as if he did commit a crime against God. The very purpose of his suicide may of had him asking for forgiveness while he was dieing during his hanging.

After reading this thread, I've gained a spirit of hope for the salvation of all. However, an aparition has wayyy more value then speculative theology. Why? Because approved appiritions aren't wrong, they are approved by the Church, and don't contradict Church teaching. If they are approved, they are authentic, and therefore are true.

Are you bound to them? No. Would it be smart to not accept them, and instead invest in speculative theology? No.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='MorphRC']Yes. Well thats a very liberal view towards this, imo. In other words your saying even though he did all this of HIS OWN FREE WILL, he might still go to heaven, then whats the point of following any of God's laws? We might go to heaven.[/quote]
The highest and more Christian reason for following God's law is love of Him, not fear of eternal punishment. We should follow God's law primarily because we know He loves us and we seek to love Him in return; it is an infantile motivation to only follow His law because we will burn in hell if we don't. Indeed, if that is our only motivation and we do not honestly [i]want[/i] to follow His law, we may still find ourselves in hell. The act of contrition says: "In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against You, [i]whom I should love above all things[/i]" (emphasis mine). Our hatred of sin should be a result of our love of God and our unwillingness to love other things above Him, not simply the terror of hell.

[quote name='MorphRC']You cant use that for everything bro. He broke the law, he broke God's trust in Him, the law is there for a reason, not just decoration.[/quote]
Yes, but was he the prodigal son, who at the last minute realized he was wrong and said, "My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart"? Remember, the thief on the cross was also a lawbreaker who broke God's law and would have died in mortal sin, but at the last minute he looked to Jesus and said: "Remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." Did Jesus respond, "Absolutely not"? On the contrary: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

The same could be true of Judas. We don't know. That's our only point: [i]we don't know[/i]. It's not that we're sure he's in Heaven, it's that we refuse to be sure he's in hell.

[White Knight]

These are all good points and such, but this question wont truely be answered until the day "you" arrive in Heaven.