Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 We don't know, purely because we don't know his state of mind. We do not know if he was insane when he betrayed Christ and we do not know if he repented with even his last breath as he hung from the tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) Not to be a pessamist, but he hung himself. If you belive he could have made an act of perfect contrition in the time it takes to die after hanging yourself, then there maybe salvation for Judas. After all, he did kill himself because he committed a wrong against the Lord. However, suicide because you do things against the Lord is still not a reasont o justify suicide, as you are disregarding God's mercy. God bless, Mikey PS I earnestly believe he had no future in heaven. I am not God however, and I do not know. Scripture says he was filled with Satan at some point, and he also rejected the Eucharist (you can ask me for the passages, but I'm busy at the moment). We all know what happens when you reject Jesus in the Eucharist (You have no life within you). I do believe that we are all shook a bit more by God's love then by God's justice when we hope for his salvation. However, nothing definte, so hope is permissable. Edited August 22, 2004 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:25 PM'] Not to be a pessamist, but he hung himself. If you belive he could have made an act of perfect contrition in the time it takes to die after hanging yourself, then there maybe salvation for Judas. After all, he did kill himself because he committed a wrong against the Lord. However, suicide because you do things against the Lord is still not a reasont o justify suicide, as you are disregarding God's mercy. God bless, Mikey [/quote] But if he was already hanging, he most likely couldn't do anything about it. It's like a man who jumps from a ten story window and realizes halfway down that he has sinned and then makes a perfect Act of Contrition before dying. It is possible and we must hope that this is the case with Judas, as we must hope for the salvation of all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:29 PM'] But if he was already hanging, he most likely couldn't do anything about it. It's like a man who jumps from a ten story window and realizes halfway down that he has sinned and then makes a perfect Act of Contrition before dying. It is possible and we must hope that this is the case with Judas, as we must hope for the salvation of all people. [/quote] His salvation has already been decided. Our hope in his salvation is useless. He is either saved, or not. You wouldn't hope that you didn't stub your toe if it already happened, would you? And I realize that you can make an act of contrition. That is why I said in the time it takes to die after killing yourself. God bless, Mikey Edited August 22, 2004 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:31 PM'] His salvation has already been decided. Our hope in his salvation is useless. He is either saved, or not. You wouldn't hope that you didn't stub your toe if it already happened, would you? And I realize that you can make an act of contrition. That is why I said in the time it takes to die after killing yourself. God bless, Mikey [/quote] [quote]You wouldn't hope that you didn't stub your toe if it already happened, would you?[/quote] No, but I might hope, however, that my brother did not stub his toe even if it had already happened, and I did not know that it had happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Your brother is a bad example. Your brother MAY stub his toe, he may have ALREADY stubbed his toe, or he may have already done it and may do it again. Weather Judas is saved or not is a one time thing. Any hope we have now is useless, for the sheer fact that if he did get saved, our hope is in vain. If he didn't get saved, our hope is in vain. I personally never saw a good reason to hope AFTER the fact. Praying after the fact is fine, in that God already knows your going to pray, and so will accept the prayers before the event happens, on the sheer fact he knows you will pray. Hope isn't prayer, and hoping after the fact is pointless. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 MichaelFilo, I truly hope you understand that, before you read this post, which is not only entirely semantical, but also hypothetical, I agree with you. If you have read my above post, you know this. However, I would argue that it is NOT useless or of little worth to hope. As all have admitted, there is no sure way of knowing whether Judas was saved or not. However, I maintain that hoping, and even praying, for him are still legitimate and would not be inherently useless. I hold this view because there is the strong possibility that, if he was saved (which I personally doubt), we is in Purgatory, atoning for the temporal affect of his sin, which is great considering he betrayed the Savior of the World unto death. If he is in Purgatory, and it must be maintained that this is a possibility, then hope and prayers for him would be most beneficial. Again, a semantical argument, but I figured I might as well put it out there. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 22 2004, 04:44 PM'] Your brother is a bad example. Your brother MAY stub his toe, he may have ALREADY stubbed his toe, or he may have already done it and may do it again. Weather Judas is saved or not is a one time thing. Any hope we have now is useless, for the sheer fact that if he did get saved, our hope is in vain. If he didn't get saved, our hope is in vain. I personally never saw a good reason to hope AFTER the fact. Praying after the fact is fine, in that God already knows your going to pray, and so will accept the prayers before the event happens, on the sheer fact he knows you will pray. Hope isn't prayer, and hoping after the fact is pointless. God bless, Mikey [/quote] No. It goes to the difference between faith and hope, which is slight. Faith is belief in something, hope is staying free from despair. In as far as I hope that Judas is not in hell, I am staying free of despairing over his soul. Hope is that which guards us against despair. We should never despair, and believing that a person is in hell is to despair, because it essentially says that the merits of Christ were not great enough to save a person who may have made perfect penance (and I acknowledge that you believe this is possible). Therefore, since we should never despair, we should always have hope of every good that is possible, even if the event has already occured, if we do not yet know the outcome of that event. In this case, we do not know the state of Judas' soul and so that we may not despair, we must be hopeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 This is fine and good, if you think you should avoid despair. Despair is neccessary so that things may have value. If you despair over the loss of things, then naturally, you give them the value due to them. No one who doesn't receive salvation is a sign of Christ's mertis being not enough, but are a sign of that person's denial of God and all that he has revealed. So, there is no need to despair over that. The despair is on the lost soul. From that the value of salvation, the soul, and our mortality, all come into clear vision again. So again, despair is neccessary. Hoping for salvation is useless if it is after the person's death, because they are dead, and they have received their judgement. By the way, defenition of hope : The theological virtue defined as the desire and search for a [i][b]future[/b][/i] good, difficult but not impossible to attain with God's help. A persons judgement is not a "future good". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 22 2004, 05:34 PM'] This is fine and good, if you think you should avoid despair. Despair is neccessary so that things may have value. If you despair over the loss of things, then naturally, you give them the value due to them. No one who doesn't receive salvation is a sign of Christ's mertis being not enough, but are a sign of that person's denial of God and all that he has revealed. So, there is no need to despair over that. The despair is on the lost soul. From that the value of salvation, the soul, and our mortality, all come into clear vision again. So again, despair is neccessary. Hoping for salvation is useless if it is after the person's death, because they are dead, and they have received their judgement. By the way, defenition of hope : The theological virtue defined as the desire and search for a [i][b]future[/b][/i] good, difficult but not impossible to attain with God's help. A persons judgement is not a "future good". [/quote] But one should not despair over something that may have happened, if the outcome is still unknown. The knowledge of the outcome is what determines the place of despair, not the time of the event. Let me specify. I can despair over Judas' death, but that would be foolish because I do not know the judgment on his soul. Therefore, out of despair and hope, between which lies no middle ground, I must choose hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 There is a middle-ground, indifference. Although I'm not going to go about preaching indifference (because after all, I'm no taoist). I'll admit however, you are right, if you must choose between the 2, then better to choose hope, then despair. It was fun having an intellectual debate. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 22 2004, 05:49 PM'] There is a middle-ground, indifference. Although I'm not going to go about preaching indifference (because after all, I'm no taoist). I'll admit however, you are right, if you must choose between the 2, then better to choose hope, then despair. It was fun having an intellectual debate. God bless, Mikey [/quote] Not to continue the debate (although it was fun to stretch the philosophical muscles), but I can't quite agree with indifference in this regard. Apathy exists, but I think it is an intellectual trait, not a spiritual trait. The human spirit always feels something deep down inside, it can never be completely indifferent, even though an intellectual mask of indifference may be worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddalena Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) But sometimes, it would take hours before someone would die from hanging. Maybe he had been hanging there for hours thinking, "I [i]really[/i] should not have done that." Edited August 22, 2004 by Maddalena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Aug 22 2004, 12:01 PM'] and no doubt Our Lady was also praying for Judas. It's entirely possible that just as her intercession has brought even the worst of sinners to conversion, often times last minute, her intercession may also have brought Judas to conversion. [/quote] I read "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord" by Emmerich last Lent. Here's something I thought was cool: [quote]I saw our Lord conversing apart with his Mother, and he told her, among other things, that he had sent Peter, the apostle of faith, and John, the apostle of love, to prepare for the Pasch at Jerusalem. He said, in speaking of Magdalen, whose grief was excessive, that her love was great, but still somewhat human, and that on this account her sorrow made her beside herself. He spoke also of the schemes of the traitor Judas, [i][b]and the Blessed Virgin prayed for him[/b][/i]. [/quote] Just had to share that randomly. What love, Our Lady praying for her son's betrayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I have no idea and the Church hasn't said anything about it. I would not put his salvation beyond God's mercy and love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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