Budge Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 (edited) Potential Pope Declares Jesus Is Not the Only Way [color=red][[b]Warning from dUSt: [/b]Budge has posted only fragments of the below article and has taken cardinal Arinze out of context. Please see the complete article posted by me below.][/color] [quote] Cardinal Francis Arinze, who's considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven.In a recent interview the spirited 66 year-old deputy for outreach to other religions was asked, "So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?" Arinze responed, If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you're not a Christian you're not going to heaven, we'd regard that person as a fundamentalist...and theologically wrong.I met in Pakistan a Muslim. He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man's wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. This man, a good man, open, listening, humble--I was amazed. I listened to his works of wisdom and said to myself, "The grace of God is working in this man." The interviewer then repeated the question, "So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?" "Expressly, yes [he laughs with the audience]" (Dallas Morning News, 3/20/99)[/quote] [color=red][[b]Warning from dUSt: [/b]Budge has not provided the sources of the below quote so we have no idea where it came from. It was NOT part of the above Dallas Marning News article.][/color] [quote]On what areas in interreligious dialogue are most pressing for theological reflection: The issue of religious belonging and salvation is most important. God creates everyone for salvation, but how does this relate to one’s religious belonging? It is important to reflect on how it is that Jesus Christ is the only savior, and that the church is the way of salvation for all, but that God wants everyone to be saved. In some mysterious way, God puts others into contact with Jesus Christ without their explicit knowledge. Furthermore, it may be possible to say that although Christ is the one mediator between God and humanity, there can be secondary (not supplementary) mediators/intercessors. It is possible to approach other religions in this secondary way.Finally, insofar as other religions sacred texts are concerned, we must ask to what extent those texts can nourish us as Christians.[/quote] [url="http://www.twf.org/News/Y1997/Cardinal.html"]http://www.twf.org/News/Y1997/Cardinal.html[/url] Hmm other mediators besides Christ when the Bible says Christ is the ONLY mediator? Going to the books of false religions for NOURISHMENT? Edited August 20, 2004 by dUSt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 what religion are you Budge? I'm just curious. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Cardinal Francis Arinze is a very wise man, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Great Source. These ppl give a wonderful history of islam, leaving out the whole, african genocides, conquests, beheading ppl who dont convert, heck, theyre still doing that now in Iraq. These ppl give the 'Fairy-Fluss' version of Islam. Id trust them as much as Id trust a lion with her prey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Btw. Arinze is partly right, but wrong about the secondary mediator..of course that is IF he said this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 20 2004, 11:44 AM'] Btw. Arinze is partly right, but wrong about the secondary mediator..of course that is IF he said this. [/quote] it depends on exactly what he meant by it. Subordinate mediation is a part of the faith, but there is no mediation between God and man apart from Christ so I don't know how this concept could be applied in a non-Christian context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote]Furthermore, it may be possible to say that although Christ is the one mediator between God and humanity, there can be secondary (not supplementary) mediators/intercessors.[/quote] If he said that, that is incorrect. IF HE SAID THAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I must reveal something because its kind of cool. I am good friends with some of Cardinal Arinze's relatives and in fact he comes to visit them a couple times a year. The last time he visited was just a few weeks ago and I was supposed to come over to have dinner with him! Like the fool that I can be I missed the dinner. I got caught up with work (carpentry stuff) and forgot that the dinner was that evening. Anyway, if he does become Pope someday that would be neat because I would have [i]connections[/i]. *bling* *bling* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The good Cardinal did not say that Jesus was not the Way, he just said that all good, even if the good is apperently accidental, Leads to Jesus. Budge just like you bring me to Jesus, so truth beings you to Jesus, even if that truth is baried in junk. That is what Arinze is saying. LD you are a giant goof ball for missing that dinner. Budge, blessings on you for cementing my views on UU as silly and wrong, and on the Pope being the opposite of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Aug 20 2004, 12:58 PM'] LD you are a giant goof ball for missing that dinner. [/quote] oh I know. hehe. and I've had worse blunders than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Cardinal Arinze might be the next pope. But he's not currently the next pope. So whatever he might say now, or might have been accused of saying now, is fallible. He's not the Pontiff. Why should what he says now matter? IF he becomes the next pope the Holy Spirit will guide him. What's there to worry about then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 20 2004, 12:04 PM'] If he said that, that is incorrect. [/quote] He was incorrect saying that we can have secondary mediators/intercessors? What about Mary? The saints? Eachother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I am a "potential Pope". What's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I'm sure it would have been WAY too difficult to actually find the original article in it's entirety and post it so we could read it in context... [font="Times"]'If God himself gave freedom' [/font] [b]Cardinal Arinze says force has no place in faith matters [/b] [i]By Brooks Egerton / The Dallas Morning News [/i] What is the point of interfaith dialogue? Are there hidden agendas of conversion? Does respect for other religions mean that one is as good as another? Is there more than one way to heaven? Such questions arose again and again at last weekend's Thanksgiving World Assembly, an international gathering of religious leaders in downtown Dallas. They came into particularly sharp focus during a small-group discussion led by Cardinal Francis Arinze, who's considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II. Cardinal Arinze, the pope's spirited 66-year-old deputy for outreach to other religions, was born into a Nigerian tribal faith and converted to Roman Catholicism at age 9. He served as a priest, bishop and archbishop in his home country before being called to the Vatican in the mid-1980's. He has traveled the world since then, meeting everyone from Anglicans to Zoroastrians, winning friends if not necessarily converts. His style is frank and non-bureaucratic; many who met him in Dallas saw both confidence and humility, along with repeated flashes of humor. Following are excerpts of last weekend's discussion, which began with California Episcopal Bishop William Swing - who's trying to form a sort of United Nations for religions - seeking the cardinal's views on conversion and proselytizing. Cardinal Arinze: "The word [proselytizing] at one time was used in a good sense ... but gradually I think it has a connotation which is no longer acceptable. [That is] when it means to try to win another person over to my faith by methods that are unworthy of the human person, or methods that are unjust, which is the same, or methods that exploit the difficulties of another - like, 'If you join my religion, I'll give you a scholarship in the university. If you join my religion, I'll give you rice to eat.' In one country in Africa, 'If you join our religion, we'll give you relief supplies; if you do not, you starve and die.' And it still happens. ... "The principle it violates is the principle of respect for religious freedom, that every human being should have the freedom ... to worship God in this way or that. Not because we believe that one religion is as good as another - no - but because we believe that the human person should be inviolable, should not be violated. If God himself gave us freedom and he allowed us to use it even to the extent of offending him, who are we to use force on another in matters religious? "Although I, for instance, would want everybody to be a Catholic in the world - everybody - I can only propose it. I should not try to impose it. ... If everybody wants to become a Catholic, very good. The pope will close the department where I'm working [audience laughter] ... but is that about to happen? There's no sign of it. So once you allow human freedom, you must allow people to have two religions, or three, or four, or 200, not because you want a supermarket of religions but because the human person has freedom. ... " Dr. Joseph B. Tyson, professor emeritus of religious studies at Southern Methodist University and chairman of the Thanks-Giving Square chapel committee: " ... There are certain elements within Christianity which would say Jews are rejected of God because of the rejection of Jesus, because of the belief of their participation in the death of Jesus. I know there have been some dialogues between Jews and Christians in which Christians have been forced to change - forced by persuasion to change their views on that subject simply by listening to the impact of that view on some Jews." Cardinal Arinze: "The Christians were compelled not to change their faith but to get a clearer understanding of their faith. ... By discussing with Jews and reflecting, they realized they had not understood very well their own tradition. ... "St. Paul the Apostle, even though he was a great theologian, didn't condemn slavery as such. But now we realize that slavery should be condemned as such. It was not so clear at that time. Even in the Catholic Church we do not hold that we have the clearest idea on every point. ... We can grow in our understanding. ... "When people meet in interreligious dialogue, the end isn't to convince the other person to cross over to my religion. If that is the end, it is not interreligious dialogue. It is a debate, or an argument, friendly or otherwise. "On the other hand, we hold that people who meet in interreligious discussion and reflection should be open to conversion in another sense - conversion to God, in the sense of openness to God; that is, the action of God in us. After all, religion is not what we achieve in our Catholic belief; it is merely what God works in us if only we will allow him. ... " Dr. Tyson: "It seems to me that one of the barriers to interreligious dialogue, at least on the Christian side, is the kind of exclusivistic claim - that in fact if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you will not be in the right with God. ... " Cardinal Arinze: "[A document from the Second Vatican Council] says that God's grant of salvation includes not only Christians, but Jews, Muslims, Hindus and people of good will. That is, a person can be saved, can attain salvation, but on condition that the person is open to God's action. ... " [b]Robert Ashley, news director at Dallas radio station KHVN-AM (970): "So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?" Cardinal Arinze: "He was right. He is the way, the truth and the life. If you believe that you will become a Christian [audience laughter]. ... Only God knows to what extent a person is sincere, what opportunities the person got and how the person used those opportunities. Only God can assess all that, and he never appointed any of us part of his advisory council [more laughter]. ... [/b] "If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you're not a Christian you're not going to heaven, we'd regard that person as a fundamentalist ... and theologically wrong. ... [b]"It is quite another matter to say that one religion is as good as another. That is, it doesn't matter to what religion you belong, you can believe in this or that. ... Religion is not put together that way, [in which] you change the rules and change the goal posts if you can't score. No, no, no. ... [But we also] believe that as every religion has elements that are true and noble and good. ... "How will it work out? I can't tell you. But we know that Christ, who says, 'I am the way, the truth and the life,' died on the cross for everyone. But not everyone has equal opportunity to know about him." [/b] Sister Maureen, a London-based representative of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organization: "I'm amazed. I'm amazed. ... " Cardinal Arinze: "You thought I was a fundamentalist [he laughs] ... "I met in one place in Pakistan a Muslim [who] lived alone, and people would go to him. ... He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. ... We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man's wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. But I am not the one who opens the door [audience laughter]. ... "There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. ... This man, a good man, open, listening, humble - I was amazed. I listened to his words of wisdom and said to myself, 'The grace of God is working in this man.' "I noticed that the more they were devoted to their religion and I to my religion, the more we met one another even though I didn't know their language. ... There is a language of the heart. Even a dog knows those that love it. So if you meet a person, if both of you are devoted to God, both of you will be nearer to one another than two professors of two religions who don't practice what they teach but can elucubrate from morning till evening. ... "Mr. Ashley: "So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?" Cardinal Arinze: "Expressly, yes [he laughs with the audience]." The key word in the Arinze interview is "expressly". The Catholic view of salvation allows that non-Christians may have had a real spiritual experience with the true God, that their religions may possess important elements of the truth, and that ignorance is a factor mitigating personal culpability. Cardinal Arinze is implying that one might be saved through an IMPLICIT faith in Jesus, because such a person desires to know and to follow the truth. The missionary task is to take that stirring of faith and to help make it explicit by preaching Christ crucified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Budge, it's absolutely amazing to me that you're on the level of chopping up a story into small pieces out of context, leaving out sentences and entire paragraphs of an answer to push your own personal agenda. I'll pray for you brother. God bless. PS - What exactly is the source of the second quote you provided? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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