How Does God Understand Death?

[carrdero]

Well everyone this is a chance for everyone to explore one of the four TRUTHs.
Birth, School, Work, and .....Death.

[Laudate_Dominum]

sweet! there is so much that can be said about death.. How does God understand death? I don't think we can really know like God knows, He is omniscient and beyond time anyway. But if you were to ask what I think of death in light of God, or in a Theological context, I could comment a bit.

The fundamental way in which I think of death is that it is the ultimate concretization of our complete poverty and total dependence upon God for everything. I think this is captured most profoundly in the Mystery of Christ. Everything that Christ did has a dimension in which it is meant to instruct us. And on the cross Christ took upon himself the full weight of sin and showed us that despite the profound poverty and weakness of our situation, even crushed under the weight of sin, we are created for Love and for God. Through the immolation of Himself He conquered sin and death and showed us in the mystery of our humanity in its mortality. In the contradiction of the cross, the poverty and weakness of our humanity, crushed under the weight of sin, became the instrument of salvation for the world. He was the perfect model of loving surrender and abandonment to God, in love and trust. He taught us that despite the evil in the world and our own weakness, we have the capacity to make a total gift of self, and that this capacity is at the heart of what it means to be human, it is linked with our ultimate end and fulfillment. Death is a sign of this, and an experience we must all have.

Anyway, that's the basic point I was hoping to make, the cycle of birth and death is a concrete sign of our "metaphysical situation" (I'm starting to like that phrase , but it is not a static sign, it also leads us toward the ultimate reality and ultimate meaning of life.

What are some of your thoughts my friend?

[carrdero]

Laudate_Dominum writes: Because they are losses, privations, evils.

Is there actually loss in death? Can death actually be depriving or considered evil?

Laudate_Dominum writes: Also when people we love die it is sad and painful and we don't want them to die.

I always thought this to be sort of a selfish but realistic commodity of human nature. For example we live on an earth where there are many alternate ways to die but many people are actually surprised when it occurs.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And the reality of death is the perrenial problem of life, we must all face our mortality, this is a source of fear and uncertainty for people.

The earlier we face the fact of mortality the better. If people could only understand that there is nothing to fear even through death we would become a more enlightened society,

Laudate_Dominum writes: I do not think I have said anything that is really disputed. Are you suggesting that you do not consider these things to be tragic?

No actually you have done fine with your posts. It is just that when I think of the word tragedy or tragic I think of this as a misleading/misplaced adjective. For example many people would use this word freely to describe a situation that they do not understand. There are many things that people do not understand about death. Why someone died, how they died or even where they go and what they do after they die. The circumstances of someone’s life and death are a mystery to some people yet they automatically apply the word tragedy to describe the situation. Maybe the person who passed over completed the PURPOSE that they set out to do. Maybe the person had a very fortunate life and is about to receive and even more fortunate after-life. Some humans just don’t know but I think the word tragedy is a bit presumptuous to prescribe to someone’s life or death without K(NOW)ing the complete picture of someone’s existence.

[Aloysius]

as far as CHRISTIANITY is concerned-- death is the unnatural seperation of the soul from the body brought on by sin (without which we would live forever perfectly connected body and soul). A soul will either go to heaven or hell depending on the state of their soul when they die (if you die in a state of mortal sin your soul will enter into eternity as an evil soul, and can never change. if you die with sin you still need to be purified from but your soul is still in a state of grace with God, you will be purified and go to heaven, if you die completely free from the chains of sin, you go strait to heaven). And then, at the end of time, the body of those who went to heaven will be resurected and glorified and joined back together with the soul (for the body and soul are made to be one). the damned will remain in hell for all eternity seperated from their bodies (i think, they don't get their bodies back do they?).

So death should be sad for anyone, saint or sinner or evil. it should be especially sad for the sinner or the evil man, and the sinner should be prayed for and the evil man should be pitied. we cannot know the difference because only God knows the fate of souls (except He has revealed to us that the cannonized saints are definitely in heaven), so we pray for all who die and hope that they will find Eternal Life. It is still a somewhat sad event, it should remind us of our mortality which we have because of the disobedience of Adam. the seperation of the soul from the body is not good, but we have hope in the Lord Jesus Christ who was ressurected before us and all the saints who were ressurected with Him and Mary who was assumed body and soul into heaven that one day the soul and body will be reuinited and glorified to share in the Beatific Vision.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 20 2004, 11:00 AM'] Is there actually loss in death? Can death actually be depriving or considered evil? [/quote]
I would say yes. There is loss from one angle in that a person who once was is no longer in this world. There is loss in that the body becomes inanimate and decays into dust. As far as death being considered evil, I think this is the natural impression people have of death. Our nature is inclined to survive and live. However, I would not say that death in itself is a moral evil. I would say that when one speaks of death as an evil it is in a different sense. The sense of natural evils such as disease or natural disasters. Since there is no moral content involved the nature of it is different.

[quote]I always thought this to be sort of a selfish but realistic commodity of human nature. For example we live on an earth where there are many alternate ways to die but many people are actually surprised when it occurs.[/quote]
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly here so I will pass this issue up for the time being, perhaps you could clarify in a future post if you think it is an important point.

[quote]The earlier we face the fact of mortality the better. If people could only understand that there is nothing to fear even through death we would become a more enlightened society,[/quote]
I agree that the earlier we face our mortality the better (down to the age of reason perhaps, a small child is too innocent to be dealing with such things I would say).
I do think that death is something to be feared. Death makes us face the fact that this world is not our final end, it is temporary. This makes people face up to their actions in life and take accountability for them. The death of the body is not to be feared in itself, it is the spiritual death that is really to be feared. And in my opinion, any life that is not holy and saintly is tragic to some extent. I do not think a stoic apatheia toward death would bring about a healthier society. I think a stronger moral fabric and respect for the dignity of persons would be a better remedy. What do you think of Divine Justice? As the ancient philosophers may have put it, this world is not the end and there will be justice after we die. We will reap what we have sown.

[quote]when I think of the word tragedy or tragic I think of this as a misleading/misplaced adjective. For example many people would use this word freely to describe a situation that they do not understand. There are many things that people do not understand about death. Why someone died, how they died or even where they go and what they do after they die. The circumstances of someone’s life and death are a mystery to some people yet they automatically apply the word tragedy to describe the situation. Maybe the person who passed over completed the PURPOSE that they set out to do. Maybe the person had a very fortunate life and is about to receive and even more fortunate after-life. Some humans just don’t know but I think the word tragedy is a bit presumptuous to prescribe to someone’s life or death without K(NOW)ing the complete picture of someone’s existence.[/quote]
I suppose I was speaking in more general terms, because surely the death of the Saints and Martyrs were not tragic but were heroic and glorious. But again, this demonstrates the link between death and the nature of the life that preceded that death. We do not mourn the death of St. Therese or St. Lawrence, in fact we celebrate their death because their life was a triumph and they acheived that total gift of self in the love of God which is truly our end and fulfillment so that death was something sweet, a consummation between a bride and her Divine Bridegroom.
And I agree, one cannot really be quick to judge someone's particular life and death as tragic. But I would say in a general sense death is tragic. For example when a couples' child dies suddenly this is a great loss and tremendous source of suffering for the parents, and all the dreams and desires they had for their child are suddenly gone in an instant. It is easy to see the tragic element in a situation like this. Or that of the old person who dies having lived a selfish life. I have seen people withered on their death bed with nothing but pain and even rage in their eyes. Their life was a preparation for this moment and their actions in life led them into total isolation, guilt and despair. This too is tragic. But I would also acknowledge what I believe you were saying. That if we could see the big picture, as God sees it, many things that appear as nothing more than tragedy are in fact for the good. God brings good out everything and the wisdom of His plan is beyond our capacity to understand.

I hope I am making sense and actually engaging what you are saying.

God bless you.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thank you Al.

[White Knight]

The Lord understands it better because of his Higher Logic ability compared to ours, Just Like He can think of the true nature of Heaven and Hell. while we can't our mind sets aren't quite there, we can try to think about it, but really its beyond our comprehention Heaven & Hell are so beyond anything we can think of, if we think of what Heaven is like we gotta know its a million X million X plus Some better. We try to think of the Terrors of Hell, we can think of what Hell may be like, but really how bad we think it is, its really so much worse than we can even imagine it to be like.


Our mindsets can't vathome certian things, But God's mind set, since He created this whole Universe, whom has devine knowolage knows all things, hears all things, sees all things, is everywhere at once, He can do it. we can't not to sound neagative or anything but where just Human. "HE is GOD" so its that way.


Let me put it this way, there are some things here on this Earth we wont understand until we get to Heaven, and we aren't clouded with Sin seted mind & souls.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Aug 21 2004, 12:20 PM'] The Lord understands it better because of his Higher Logic ability compared to ours, Just Like He can think of the true nature of Heaven and Hell. while we can't our mind sets aren't quite there, we can try to think about it, but really its beyond our comprehention Heaven & Hell are so beyond anything we can think of, if we think of what Heaven is like we gotta know its a million X million X plus Some better. We try to think of the Terrors of Hell, we can think of what Hell may be like, but really how bad we think it is, its really so much worse than we can even imagine it to be like.


Our mindsets can't vathome certian things, But God's mind set, since He created this whole Universe, whom has devine knowolage knows all things, hears all things, sees all things, is everywhere at once, He can do it. we can't not to sound neagative or anything but where just Human. "HE is GOD" so its that way.


Let me put it this way, there are some things here on this Earth we wont understand until we get to Heaven, and we aren't clouded with Sin seted mind & souls. [/quote]
Amen bro! It can be easy to forget this sometimes and think we can figure everything out.

God bless.

[Aloysius]

well, we can approach it with reason and state facts about it, such as those i stated above

i don't claim to comprehend it, but by faith i know all that to be true, brought on by sin- seperation of body and soul until the end and all that. it should be sad, but we have hope in Christ..

[carrdero]

Laudate_Dominum writes: As far as death being considered evil, I think this is the natural impression people have of death.

I do not exactly think it is a natural impression as much as it is a common impression.

Laudate_Dominum writes: The sense of natural evils such as disease or natural disasters.

Why do you consider diseases and natural disasters as evil?

Carrdero writes: I always thought this to be sort of a selfish but realistic commodity of human nature. For example we live on an earth where there are many alternate ways to die but many people are actually surprised when it occurs.
Laudate_Dominum writes: I'm not sure if I understand you correctly here so I will pass this issue up for the time being, perhaps you could clarify in a future post if you think it is an important point.

What I was explaining here is that some people have expressed a feeling of abandonment or a sense that something was taken from them. A sort of possessiveness occurs when a loved one passes. Some people are very surprised when a loved one passes on as if someone has passed on too early or with unfinished “business”. It almost seems like some people feel like the entity that passed on was their own and that the deceased entity’s life was their own to decide how and when it should pass on.

Laudate_Dominum writes: The death of the body is not to be feared in itself, it is the spiritual death that is really to be feared.

This is not to be feared either. The only reason an entity would experience a spiritual death (final death) is if they chose to actually end their existence. No one entity makes that decision for another entity.

Laudate_Dominum writes: I do not think a stoic apatheia toward death would bring about a healthier society.

It may rule out such negative tendencies as wrath, anger, and revenge which could be used towards a more healthy society but I also think it should be accompanied with your next sentence…

Laudate_Dominum writes: I think a stronger moral fabric and respect for the dignity of persons would be a better remedy.

I highly agree. Except that I would encourage these qualities from the standpoint that it actually feels good and NATURAL to exercise these qualities rather than attaching a unprecedented fear of GOD or Satan. History has PROVEN people do not respond well to these tactics.


Laudate_Dominum writes: What do you think of Divine Justice?

If you are implying about GOD’s judgment or GOD’s justice system I may have to pass on both these theories. Many people would have you believe that GOD is a baby sitter that he has implemented plans and laws that we are supposed to observe and obey so that we behave to a certain standard or practice. Nothing could be farther from the TRUTH. Some people who feel they (or others) have been wronged or disrespected by another person rely on GODs sense of justice to judge or punish the wrongdoer. This is not GOD. This is Superman. I also do not believe in Poetic Justice.

Laudate_Dominum writes: But I would say in a general sense death is tragic. For example when a couples' child dies suddenly this is a great loss and tremendous source of suffering for the parents, and all the dreams and desires they had for their child are suddenly gone in an instant. It is easy to see the tragic element in a situation like this.

If we remember the three TRUTHs about how GOD understands death
1.REMEMBER, everyONE has to die; everyONE has to go out of this world in some way.
2.REMEMBER, there is no judgment in death, no right or wrong in death.
3.REMEMBER, the physical existence you are living now is not your home.

If we keep those three TRUTHs in mind the question remains, how did that couple want their child to die and who had promised them that the child was to survive for a certain time? I also saw that your example included the parent’s interest that their dreams and desires went unfulfilled in this child. Could it be possible that the parent’s dreams and desires may not have been as important as what PURPOSE the child has fulfilled (or not fulfilled)?