Loraine Boettner's Roman Catholicism

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:02 AM'] Catholic unity, yes, Christiandom, no. [/quote]
Dont know much about Christendom except this:

The relation of this holy catholic Church to the various ecclesiastical organizations of worldwide Christendom is the source of major divisions among these organizations. Roman Catholicism has tended to equate its own institutional structure with the catholic Church, as the common usage of the latter term suggests, and some extreme Protestant groups have been ready to claim that they, and they alone, represent the true visible Church. Increasingly, however, Christians of all segments have begun to acknowledge that no one group has an exclusive right to call itself “the” Church, and they have begun to work towards the reunion of all Christians.

Encarta
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 22 2004, 09:37 AM'] 29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation
[/quote]
I agree with that.

This ignorance thing is a beautiful loophole, sometimes i wish i was never born catholic or knew it. Id be assured of heaven.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Morph, I hope you're joking, because you most certainly would not be assured heaven.

While it is possible to persevere throughout one's life in a state of invincible ignorance, and to attain salvation though Christ's merits by adhereing to God's Law inscribed on your heart, it is very, very difficult. We are beset on all sides by the evils of the world and the sins of the flesh, and to top it off, we are at war with our very natures. The Church, the Sacraments, the Faith: This is one of the greatest gifts that can be given to someone. It's like getting handed a flashlight and a map when you're trying to navigate your way out of a pitch-black maze.

Also, a semantical point:

[quote]And what it says is plain and simple, if you dont believe in the I.C. you break yourself from Catholic Unity, hence your a heretic or 'seperated brethren' as V2 put it.[/quote]

This is incorrect in the sense that a heretic, strictly speaking, is one who begins a visible member of the Church, but professes something contrary to Dogma and refuses to recant.

You would be correct to say that they are "material heretics" in that their beliefs go against Church teaching, however, their culpability as such depends on their situation. "Seperated Brethren" is probably a more semantically correct term to use, as it adequately describes their position in relation to the Church.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MorphRC]

The way people go on about the Ignorance thing, they make it sound like a massive loophole! Christ said hardly anyone will enter heaven, not exact words I know, but with this ignorance thing that applies to almost everyone, they're guareenteed of heaven, leading a good and godly life of course.

It just seems like a nice kick in the face to Catholics who try there best, and might not make it, but some schmuck in antartica could. Just seems like a big fat kick in the face.

[MorphRC]

btw the schmuck thing isnt being used in a derogatory term, if you think it is, go learn yiddish.

[Guest JeffCR07]

lol, please read my above post

[Brother Adam]

Morph,

I recently asked several ordained clergy what would happen to me if I died as a Protestant, having never studied nor entered into the Catholic Church.

Never once did the answer return "You will go to hell". Every single time, from every member of the clergy I recieved "You would go straight to heaven".

By a valid baptism, regardless of where or by whom it is preformed, a person is eternally united to Christ's Church. If a person remains in God's grace until death, they will go to heaven. Protestants have two things going for them: hardly ever can a sin meet the requirements for being a mortal sin, and two, even without confession, it is possible for them to be reconciled through the perfect act of contrition.

I realize the second vatican council poses a huge problem for many traditional Catholics. But the doctrines of the Church did not change, they simply made many claifications, that allowed a person like me to better understand the Catholic Church and return home.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would like to point out that I believe Brother Adam and I are saying the same thing, though it may appear that we are contradicting each other.

Brother Adam is highlighting the fact that it is possible for a person to be saved even if they are not in perfect and visible communion with the Catholic Church.

I have also said this, though I have pointed out that the graces received through active and complete participation in the Church are indescribably huge boons and gifts that aid us in our journey through the narrow gate.

I believe Brother Adam would agree with me in this regards

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 08:00 AM'] Protestants have two things going for them: hardly ever can a sin meet the requirements for being a mortal sin, and two, even without confession, it is possible for them to be reconciled through the perfect act of contrition.
[/quote]
I thought a mortal sin was,

1. Grave matter (i.e. adultery, murder, etc)
2. Full consent of the will
3. Full knowledge

As a Roman Catholic I never knew if I had commited a mortal sin or not because I'd have dirty thoughts or whatever, fight to get them out of my head, and lose the battle. Apparently that's a mortal sin. But according to Bro. Adam, it's hardly ever possible to commit a mortal sin.

Thank God for His Grace that I am no longer under the Law, either that of Rome, or under the Jewish Law, but under grace.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:58 PM'] I thought a mortal sin was,

1. Grave matter (i.e. adultery, murder, etc)
2. Full consent of the will
3. Full knowledge

As a Roman Catholic I never knew if I had commited a mortal sin or not because I'd have dirty thoughts or whatever, fight to get them out of my head, and lose the battle. Apparently that's a mortal sin. But according to Bro. Adam, it's hardly ever possible to commit a mortal sin.

Thank God for His Grace that I am no longer under the Law, either that of Rome, or under the Jewish Law, but under grace. [/quote]
Dirty thoughts are common afflictions even for saints. The holiness lies in never letting them win. Ultimately, we have to choose to entertain those thoughts for us to be sinning. If we continue resisting, then we are not sinning, but only being bombarded with occasion to sin. St. Jane Francis de Chantal, whose feast was yesterday, is a perfect example. She suffered terribly evil thoughts all her life, but suffered them silently within herself and always continued to fight.

The Law of Rome is the Law of Grace. Grace manifests itself in the ability of the sinner to become the saint and to reject sin. One who embraces serious sin cuts himself off from Grace.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

This is [color=green][font="Courier"]Bro. Adam[/color][/font] btw - using Mrs. Bro. Adam's screenname for a moment.

ICTHUS

There are three laws that can be in place here:

1. Jewish Law
2. Canonical Law
3. Christ's Law

Levitical law, obviously, is fulfilled with the life of Christ. We are now members of a redeemed humanity.

Canonical Law, does not dictate principals and doctrines of salvation, but instead guides the administration of the Church - as the Roberts New Rules of Order or Baptist Principles may guide a Baptist Church. You are right - you are no longer under this Catholic law as a formal heretic. (And I don't mean this as an insult, I was for many years a heretic, that is if you have officially cut all ties from the Church as it seems you have the way you talk).

Christ's law, the new law, as Christians we are under and must obey. I notice that reformed Protestants spend a great deal of time in the Pauline letters, but almost no time anywhere else. In the five years of Reformed sermons I listened I only heard a verse or two from the gospel, except for Easter Sunday when the Passion was shared. Never was the Sermon on the Mount preached, or any of what Christ said about eternal life.

Catholics believe in Grace Alone - all is through the "unmerited favor of God"
Catholics believe in faith working in love, instead of faith alone, explicitely condemned by James.

I believe you are a Calvinist now correct? Fully TULIP? I am sorry if you recieved a poor Catholic education growing up, but perhaps it's time to get aquainted with true Catholic teaching so you don't keep spewing forth such lies as Catholics believe they can strictly merit heaven.

It is not "Faith and works" it is "In obediance - Faith" Romans 1:5

Edited August 22, 2004 by Mrs. Bro. Adam

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 02:18 PM'] The Law of Rome is the Law of Grace. Grace manifests itself in the ability of the sinner to become the saint and to reject sin. One who embraces serious sin cuts himself off from Grace. [/quote]
We become saints at justification - why do you think Paul addressed the Christians he wrote to as 'the saints', when they had not even had their sanctification completed yet? Because they were holy, called out from the nations and set apart for God.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 22 2004, 03:21 PM'] We become saints at justification - why do you think Paul addressed the Christians he wrote to as 'the saints', when they had not even had their sanctification completed yet? Because they were holy, called out from the nations and set apart for God. [/quote]
The Bible also says that the saints can lose salvation by serious sin. If we are in the state of grace, we can be called holy, but that doesn't mean that we can't cut ourselves off from grace.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 19 2004, 07:50 PM'] Also, the book "Not by Scripture Alone," which is a collection of works by some catholic apologeticists and is edited by Robert Sungenis, deals with some of the points brought up.

Budge, though "laughable" is certainly a biased term, "unscholarly" is certainly a wise description of the book. The [i]vast[/i] majority of the sources used in it are books and texts written by other protestant sources, and there are actually an alarmingly small number of original catholic sources that are cited. One would expect, especially in a book specifically about Roman Catholicism, that there would be a goodly number of primary sources, especially when considering the massive volume of literature that the Church has produced over the course of 2000 years. On a side note, many of the primary sources that [i]are[/i] used end up being portrayed dreadfully out of their context.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
you took the word,"unscholarly" right out of my mouth.

(Though Budge that just means we are good lawyers right?)

Ave Maria,

James III

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 22 2004, 11:30 PM'] Morph,

I recently asked several ordained clergy what would happen to me if I died as a Protestant, having never studied nor entered into the Catholic Church.

Never once did the answer return "You will go to hell". Every single time, from every member of the clergy I recieved "You would go straight to heaven".

By a valid baptism, regardless of where or by whom it is preformed, a person is eternally united to Christ's Church. If a person remains in God's grace until death, they will go to heaven. Protestants have two things going for them: hardly ever can a sin meet the requirements for being a mortal sin, and two, even without confession, it is possible for them to be reconciled through the perfect act of contrition.

I realize the second vatican council poses a huge problem for many traditional Catholics. But the doctrines of the Church did not change, they simply made many claifications, that allowed a person like me to better understand the Catholic Church and return home. [/quote]
[quote]I recently asked several ordained clergy what would happen to me if I died as a Protestant, having never studied nor entered into the Catholic Church.[/quote]

That I agree with. But if you purposely refuse not to learn, as to avoid any responsibility, then surely, ignorance cant apply, since ignorance in its general sense is; 'unintentional lack of knowledge'.