Aloysius Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 [url="http://newadvent.org/fathers/1801034.htm"]http://newadvent.org/fathers/1801034.htm[/url] second paragraph... nowhere can i find in Psalm 34 "And was carried in His Own Hands" what's going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 it may help first to provide the beginning paragraphs of this work by Augustine: [quote]1. Because there was there a sacrifice after the order of Aaron, and afterwards He of His Own Body and Blood appointed a sacrifice after the order of Melchizedek; He changed then His Countenance in the Priesthood, and sent away the kingdom of the Jews, and came to the Gentiles. What then is, "He affected"? He was full of affection. For what is so full of affection as the Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, seeing our infirmity, that He might deliver us from everlasting death, underwent temporal death with such great injury and contumely? "And He drummed:" because a drum is not made, except when a skin is extended on wood; and David drummed, to signify that Christ should be crucified. But, "He drummed upon the doors of the city:" what are "the doors of the city," but our hearts which we had closed against Christ, who by the drum of His Cross hath opened the hearts of mortal men? "And was carried in His Own Hands:" how "carried in His Own Hands"? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, "This is My Body." "And He fell down at the doors of the gate;" that is, He humbled Himself. For this it is, to fall down even at the very beginning of our faith. For the door of the gate is the beginning of faith; whence beginneth the Church, and arriveth at last even unto sight: that as it believeth those things which it seeth not, it may deserve to enjoy them, when it shall have begun to see face to face. So is the title of the Psalm; briefly we have heard it; let us now hear the very words of Him that affecteth, and drummeth upon the doors of the city. 2. "I will bless the Lord at all times; His praise shall be ever in my mouth" (ver. 1). So speaketh Christ, so also let a Christian speak; for a Christian is in the Body of Christ; and therefore was Christ made Man, that that Christian might be enabled to be an Angel, who saith, "I will bless the Lord at all times." When shall I "bless the Lord"? When He blesseth thee? When the goods of this world abound? When thou hast great abundance of corn, oil, and wine, of gold and silver, of servants and cattle; when this mortal health remaineth unwounded and sound; when all that are born to thee grow up, nothing is withdrawn by immature death, happiness wholly reigneth in thy house, and all things overflow around thee; then shalt thou bless the Lord? No; but "at all times." Therefore both then, and when according to the time, or according to the scourges of our Lord God, these things are troubled, are taken away, are seldom born to thee, and born pass away. For these things come to pass, and thence followeth penury, need, labour, pain, and temptation. But thou, who hast sung, "I will bless the Lord at all times: His praise shall be ever in my mouth," both when He giveth them, bless; and when He taketh them away, bless.[/quote] it appears to me that Augustine does not begin quoting the psalm until pargraph three, and so his quotes in the preceding paragraphs are from other books in the bible, and are used to provide the framework for his commentary on Psalm 34. notice these words from the end of paragraph 2: "So is the title of the Psalm; briefly we have heard it; let us now hear the very words of Him that affecteth, and drummeth upon the doors of the city. . . . 'I will bless the Lord at all times; His praise shall be ever in my mouth' (ver. 1)." also note that his other quotes in paragraphs 1 and 2 are not found in this psalm either. as for "carried in his own hands," this could possibly be a reference to [b]Lev 7:30[/b][list] [*]he shall bring with his own hands the offerings by fire to the LORD; he shall bring the fat with the breast, that the breast may be waved as a wave offering before the LORD. [/list]i hope this helps pax christi, nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 it doesnt appear that he's talkin about leviticus, he says it is unclear how it refers to David, meaning it hasta be in the psalms or at least in some book refering to David... plus that leviticus quote doesn't really say he was carried in his own hands... there's gotta be something in reference to David about being carried in his own hands somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 It should be noted that the Psalms of the D-R and Vulgate are numbered differently than in the NAB, RSV-CE, NJB, etc. Even though Augustine predates the Vulgate, he probably used a similar system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 [quote name='thedude' date='Aug 18 2004, 08:53 PM'] It should be noted that the Psalms of the D-R and Vulgate are numbered differently than in the NAB, RSV-CE, NJB, etc. Even though Augustine predates the Vulgate, he probably used a similar system. [/quote] right, but if this were merely an issue of numbering, then the phrase "in his own hands" should be found in another of the psalms. but its not.... pretty confusing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 19, 2004 Author Share Posted August 19, 2004 yeah, i've looked at psalms 30-35 thinkin there might be a numbering discrepency or something... but i don't see it. if we could find this in the scriptures it'd be a really cool prophecy about the Last Supper, and a powerful argument that St. Augustine himself used!, but I can't find it anywhere but in Augustine's writing... hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 [quote]1 Kingdoms 21.14 (1 Samuel 21.13). Brenton has, “And he changed his appearance before him, and feigned himself a false character in that day; and drummed upon the doors of the city, and [b]used extravagant gestures[/b] with his hands, and fell against the doors of the gate, and his spittle ran down upon his beard.” A more literal translation is, “And he changed his appearance before him, and feigned himself a false character in that day; and drummed upon the doors of the city, and [b]was carried in[/b] his hands, and fell against the doors of the gate, and his spittle ran down upon his beard.” Relying on the Old Latin, Augustine (On the Psalms 34.1) interpreted the phrase “[he] was carried in his hands” as a reference to Jesus: “Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, ‘This is My Body.’ ” [/quote] [url="http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RQua5IZyz5oJ:www.geocities.com/r_grant_jones/Rick/Septuagint/sp_translation_notes.html+%E2%80%9Cthe+doors+of+the+city%E2%80%9D+Ps&hl=en"]http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RQua5...%80%9D+Ps&hl=en[/url] It's so cool to find the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 i officially despise you now hehe, j/k!! excellent work bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 here's the page in its original format, w/o highlighting [url="http://www.geocities.com/r_grant_jones/Rick/Septuagint/sp_translation_notes.html"]http://www.geocities.com/r_grant_jones/Ric...tion_notes.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 gotta bump this the link cure provided is wayyyyyy interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 [quote name='thedude' date='Aug 19 2004, 12:23 PM'] It should be noted that the Psalms of the D-R and Vulgate are numbered differently than in the NAB, RSV-CE, NJB, etc. Even though Augustine predates the Vulgate, he probably used a similar system. [/quote] just thinking that, then i saw this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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