Grave Matters Or Scruples?

[Ziggamafu]

[b]my initial question -[/b]

ME: the whole "grave matter" thing seems to be so subjective...i don't think that there has ever been an official declaration that the 10 commandments suffice...so is there a list of "grave matters"?

Catholic Answers:Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother." The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

[b]someone else's q&a that causes me trouble -[/b]

HIM: I committed a lustful sin two times and confessed it to two different priests. I was truely sorry for the sin and committed to not doing it again but I failed and did it again. This time I confessed it to a different priest and he said that lustful thinking and masturbation was not a serious sin and was very common. He that that I would probably fail again, and that I should not run to the confessional each time. He said that I could say an act of contrition to myself to have God forgive the sin instead. He made me think that this lustful sin was not mortal because it was not a serious issue. Was the priest right in what he told me???

Catholic Answers: Dear Swim,
The Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes “Persona humana 9” from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in stating: “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” In other words, it is objectively a mortal sin and must be confessed.
I’m sure the priest meant well and considered such counsel as “pastoral.” But he did you no favors is contradicting the teaching of the Church.

[b]My PM to Father Vincent (who answered the questions):[/b]

Father,

Your response causes me some internal conflict over the response to my question about what the "grave" matters are and my possible scruples. The answer I was given was that the 10 commandments are the "grave matters" that, when coupled with the other two conditions necessary, yield a mortal sin. Masturbation is not listed there...and if one is capable of reading into the 10 commandments to produce an ever-increasing list of grave matters (one such example being masturbation) then it would seem I am back to square one with my initial question. Anything can be subjectively interpreted to be a grave matter by anyone. Please help!

Love,

Ziggamafu


[b]SO! This is where I am: If there are three conditions necessary to make a sin mortal, than man oh man should there be three more conditions to make a matter "GRAVE"!!! Please advise, explain, debate, etc.[/b]

[StColette]

There are only three conditions so you are correct completely in this. In regards to masturbation not being listed as a mortal sin the Church views it as this :

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

It seems to me that the Church holds masturbation as a grave offence against chastity which falls under the Commandment of "Thou shall not commit adultery" And thus it would be considered a grave sin.

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Q: In another question, you mention the "usual conditions" for mortal sin. What are those?

A: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: ‘Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.’ [RP 17 # 12]

The usual conditions are thus:

Grave matter
Full knowledge
Deliberate consent
Here is what the Catechism says as a synopsis of grave matter:

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.’ [Mk 10:19] The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

What this means is that the Ten Commandments specify the categories to which grave matter applies. For example, "Thou shalt not steal" specifies the category of economics as one which, if abused, can have grave matter. "Thou shalt not bear false witness" specifies the category of truth telling, etc.

This does not mean every sin in every one of these categories is objectively grave. The sin can be rendered light through particular circumstance. According to the Church's standard moral teachings, stealing ten dollars from a billionaire who has little need of it would be a light sin, not a grave one, but stealing the same ten dollars from a peasant who needs it in order to avoid starving to death would be a grave sin. In the same way, telling a "little white lie" would usually be a venial sin, but perjuring yourself under oath and sending an innocent man to prison would be a grave one.

Concerning full knowledge and deliberate consent the Catechism states:

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart [cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31] do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

What the Catechism says about feigned ignorance is important. Often times people refuse to investigate something or to look at evidence concerning what God wants of them in an attempt to "protect themselves" from knowing, and thus being obligated to do, something they don't want to do. In such cases, one is feigning ignorance rather than investigating the matter as one should. Only unintentional ignorance dimishes one's accountability for sin:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

If the three conditions are not met then the sin is venial:

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q126.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q126.htm[/url]

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I hope some of this helps

God Bless,
Jennie

[Ziggamafu]

That second thing was not my question - it was someone else's on the question and answer forum, which i read regularly. however, since the answer he received confused me, i wanted clarification.

anyway, the crux is this: if you die with mortal sin on your conscience, you go to hell. and since the replies i'm getting suggest that any venial sin [i]could[/i] be mortal, given the right situation, and that any matter could be grave, [b]you should go to confession every five minutes and right a list everytime you knowingly and willingly go 5 over on the freeway.[/b]

it is called "scruples" when we condemn ourselves for every little thing and go to confession too much. but if every little thing could be mortal, shouldn't we be bothering the priest with constant cell phone calls and walk-in appointments?

shouldn't we be willing to walk out of work to seek confession? which is more important your job or your soul?

shouldn't we be willing to walk out of a date with our spouses for the same reason because we remember that we knowingly and willingly have been using reems of paper at work for personal uses? who is more important your wife or your relationship with God?

[MC Just]

i've heard that happen so many times....

[Ziggamafu]

so how do we KNOW (since things such as these, which weigh the destiny of your eternal soul) when just confessing to God and asking Him for forgiveness is enough? How do we KNOW where the line is to be drawn to go to the priest? Is it necessary to confess to a priest as well as to God privately for every sin to be forgiven? I know that the Bible tells us to confess our sins to each other and I believe in the sacrament of reconcilliation; but is going to confession necessary for getting the sin forgiven, or is it something encouraged by God to merely make us feel better by physically confirming what has already taken place on a private basis between you and God (forgiveness)?

[Ziggamafu]

---in other words, is going to confession REQUIRED to get the sin forgiven or merely encouraged? will not going, after having already confessed your sins to God, send you to Hell?

[phatcatholic]

he zigga, i don't have time to answer ur question now b/c i have to go to work in a bit. but, i want u to know that i will be thinking about it throughout the day and i will write a response as soon as i get a chance.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Zigga, if you are contrite and intend to go to Confession but are prevented from doing so, it will not necessarily be held against you. What we physically lack, grace supplies. Leave all up to the mercy and providence of God. Don't worry. Don't be afraid, etc.

Focus on God and on building your relationship with Him through the Church and the Sacraments. Though it is a good and pious practice to frequent Confession, if you're focusing too much on sin and 'what you've done wrong', you're going to miss the point. Examine your concience everyday--without overdoing it, but let the focus of your day, not be on what you did wrong, but on what you're doing to follow and love God.

(This is not an attempt to rationalize sin or somehow lessen its offense, just that, if we make our focuses on how we might better serve God (/love God) we begin to do those things. When we focus on what we've done wrong (sin) we are always thinking of sin and it becomes and easier thing to do since it's always on our mind)

Edited August 20, 2004 by Fides_et_Ratio

[phatcatholic]

zigga,

ok, i want to respond to everything you've said so far so that you get the answers you need. so, i'll be responding to all ur posts in this thread. in your first post, everything seems to have a response up to your PM to Fr. Vincent:

[quote][b]My PM to Father Vincent (who answered the questions):[/b]

Father,

Your response causes me some internal conflict over the response to my question about what the "grave" matters are and my possible scruples. The answer I was given was that the 10 commandments are the "grave matters" that, when coupled with the other two conditions necessary, yield a mortal sin. Masturbation is not listed there...and if one is capable of reading into the 10 commandments to produce an ever-increasing list of grave matters (one such example being masturbation) then it would seem I am back to square one with my initial question. Anything can be subjectively interpreted to be a grave matter by anyone. Please help![/quote]
okay, first off, your right, there seems to be a place for every type of sin within the ten commandments. if you read the Catechism, you'll find that the Church has expounded upon each commandment in such a way as to include sins that may not at first seem relevant. but, it only makes sense that the ten commandments would encompass all the ways in which we are to be obedient to God. he gave them to his people as the foundation for obedience.

what i'm about to introduce next is rather nuanced, but this is how i have come to understand the commandments in determining grave matter.

nuance #1: although a sin may be found under one of the ten commandments, the gravity of the sin depends on its closeness to the surface sin that is mentioned
--the ten commandments seem on the surface to be concerned w/ the most grave sin, and any other sins that fall under the surface are lesser in gravity

nuance #2: gravity of a sin depends on both who it effects and how it effects them (as Catholic Answers alluded to in their response about violence against parents and stranger)

here is an example that illustrates both nuances at work. the 9th commandment is "thall shall not covet thy neighbor's wife." adultry is the gravest offense under this commandment, for it breaks the marriage bond, is an insult to chastity, and is an acting out of what could have been merely a thought or a temptation.

below this would be masturbation. this sin involves covetous thoughts and feelings as well as acting upon these thoughts/feelings. however, the actions are turned upon oneself instead of directly involving another person. so this is lesser in gravity then actually having sex w/ another person outside the marriage bond.

lesser in gravity would be a married person coveting another but not acting on this thought. this would not be as grave b/c the person is not putting the thought into direct physical action, and b/c the effects of this covetting on the marriage are more indirect.

lesser still in gravity would be looking at any person in a carnal or sexual way, regardless of any relationship you may be in. this is not as grave b/c the direct impact of the sin is really only on yourself, and any impact on others is indirect (for example, wounding the unity of the body of Christ and objectifying people in such a way that you nurture w/in yourself a disrespect towards them.)

note that so far we are also assuming that w/ all three sins, the thought is being entertained in the mind.

next in lessening degree would be a thought that, while covetous, is fleeting in nature. for example, a woman walks by and u think to urself, "man, she's hot" but u don't think much more about it. technically, this thought is sinful b/c words like "hot" and "sexy" are only concerned w/ a person's physical appearance, and not w/ their dignity as a person. however, since the thought is fleeting, the effect on yourself and others is lessened even further, and i would peronally consider this sin less enough in gravity to not fulfill the qualifications for mortal sin.

now, are all of these instances sin? YES. however, they are not equal in gravity. the gravest sin is the one that:
--is most explicitly stated by the commandment
--involves the most direct action towards oneself and others
--causes the most harm to oneself and others
--is the most direct and harmful towards those for whom we have the most moral responsibility

as you can hopefully see, not every sin can be constituted as grave.

also, note that thus far we have not even mentioned what is a mortal sin, but what is a grave sin. a person can commit a grave sin but, if the other qualifications for mortal sin are not met, the sin can still be declared venial.

i highly reccommend reading the Catechism's treatment of all ten commandments. that will give you the best idea of how sins fall w/in the framework of the word of God given to Moses. beyond that, just follow your heart. pray to God that he will form your conscience so that the natural law within you will speak out against what is grave.

[quote]anyway, the crux is this: if you die with mortal sin on your conscience, you go to hell. and since the replies i'm getting suggest that any venial sin could be mortal, given the right situation, and that any matter could be grave, you should go to confession every five minutes and right a list everytime you knowingly and willingly go 5 over on the freeway.[/quote]
you are right in saying that any venial sin could be mortal. however, not every matter could be grave. this is an important distinction, and i hope i have illustrated the difference w/ my words thus far. also, note that mortal sin, and even grave sin, are usually rather rare occurances. most of the sins we comit throughout the day are venial in nature and as such, do not require us to go to confession every 5 minutes. an honest reflection and prayer for forgiveness at the end of the day usually works to forgive all the sins we have committed since we woke up that morning.

the priest from ur first post probably gave his particular advice about masturbation b/c, while it is always grave in nature, it is not always mortal. also, if this person is repeatedly (as in daily) in the confessional b/c of masturbation he is most likely psychologically addicted, which does not give the person "full consent of the will" so as to resist. full consent of the will presupposes a mind that can act for itself. any mind that is a slave to addiction or mental disorder can not give full consent.

[quote]it is called "scruples" when we condemn ourselves for every little thing and go to confession too much. but if every little thing could be mortal, shouldn't we be bothering the priest with constant cell phone calls and walk-in appointments?[/quote]
well, also note that we take recourse to confession b/c a mortal sin has been committed, not b/c the potential for a mortal sin exists. temptation has the potential to lead to mortal sin, but as long as we do not act on this temptation we are not sinning, not even venially. of course, no one would go to confession merely b/c he is tempted. the potential always exists for us to comit a grave sin, and for this grave sin (and only the grave ones) to be mortal. afterall, we are sinful creatures in a sinful world. however, how we respond to this potentiality makes all the difference.

[quote]so how do we KNOW (since things such as these, which weigh the destiny of your eternal soul) when just confessing to God and asking Him for forgiveness is enough? How do we KNOW where the line is to be drawn to go to the priest? Is it necessary to confess to a priest as well as to God privately for every sin to be forgiven?[/quote]
asking God for forgiveness via a private prayer is enough as long as the sin is venial. even if the sin is grave, this is enough as long as the grave sin is not likewise mortal. we draw the line at grave sin that is mortally sinful. also, although it is only necessary to go to confession when we have committed mortal sin, we are free to go to confession to forgive venial sin as well. this is something that i do, and for many reasons:

1. forgiveness via private prayer to God depends on a genuine and contrite heart. sometimes i ask for forgiveness even tho i'm not truly sorry. however, something about the sacrament makes the effects of sin more real to me (all sin is "bad," even venial sin) and it brings out in me a true contrition that i could not express before (often times we become numb to the effects of certain sins in our life)
2. although we should have definite faith that if we appeal to God w/a contrite heart he will forgive us, the "concreteness" of forgiveness through the sacrament rids me of any doubt i may have had in my mind. you KNOW that when the priest says "throught the ministry of the Church i absolve you of your sin" that its a DONE DEAL. SIGNED, SEALED, DELIVERED. YOU ARE FORGIVEN. i suppose its just nice to hear those words.
3. we also know w/ the greatest of certainty that the sacrament of confession grants us both sanctifying grace--which cleanses us of all sin--and actual grace that helps us to resist temptation in the future. venial sins, although they do not completely sever our relationship w/ Christ, they do wound it and make it harder for us to resist temptation. so, its nice to recieve those graces.

also, note that i don't do this daily. i think daily confession is unnecessary, and implies a lack of faith in the power of God to forgive us of our sin via personal prayer to him. also any grave sin that may prompt one to confession on a daily basis is probably not mortally sinful. personally, i go to confession every saturday, which i think is an acceptable practice. it allows me to receive complete healing of all the wounds i have caused myself and the Body of CHrist that week, and prepares me to recieve my Lord and Savior in the Eucharist on Sunday.

[quote]I know that the Bible tells us to confess our sins to each other and I believe in the sacrament of reconcilliation; but is going to confession necessary for getting the sin forgiven, or is it something encouraged by God to merely make us feel better by physically confirming what has already taken place on a private basis between you and God (forgiveness)?[/quote]
the purpose of the sacrament is NOT to "merely make us feel better by physically confirming what has already taken place on a private basis between you and God." this is b/c, as i mentioned before, the sacrament of reconciliation is for mortal sins. since these particular sins can only be forgiven thru the sacrament, then the sacrament could not play the role of confirming a forgiveness that takes place via private prayer.

secondly, the purpose of the sacrament is not to merely confirm a forgiveness that has already taken place, but to perform an actual forgivness, a true and real sanctification of the believer by its own action.

[quote]---in other words, is going to confession REQUIRED to get the sin forgiven or merely encouraged? will not going, after having already confessed your sins to God, send you to Hell?[/quote]
going to confession is [i][b]required [/b][/i]to get [i][b]mortal [/b][/i]sin forgiven. if you confess a mortal sin through private prayer, but NOT through the sacrament, you will go to hell if you die w/o this confession through the sacrament. again, note that this is only regarding mortal sin.

even an unconfessed venial sin will not keep you from heaven, for they do not completely sever our relationship w/ Christ. however, one must be careful w/ this idea. a person who lives a life full of many venial sins and does not confess them could actually be mortally sinning b/c repeated refusal to conform to the will of God is a grave matter. likewise, repeated refusal ususally implies full knowledge and consent of the will as well. afterall, this person is consistently making the decision not to recieve forgiveness.

hmmm, for some reason i fear i have only added to your confusion. i acknowledge that there are many nuances to what i have said here, and i see that some of my words could easily be taken the wrong way. i have tried to be as clear and direct as possible. if you have any more questions, please let me know. likewise, if anyone feels that i have spoken in error here, please correct me.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

St. Michael the Archangel, Pray for Us!!

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote]well, also note that we take recourse to confession b/c a mortal sin has been committed, not b/c the potential for a mortal sin exists[/quote]
Quoted this because it's important... this really hit the nail on the head, phat.

A sin is not made mortal by it's potential, it is made mortal by its ACTION. Something a very wise priest told me: 'if you're worried a sin might be mortal and you haven't done it yet, then don't do it. if you're worried a sin you've already committed might be mortal, then it's not-- you were lacking knowledge at the time'
The 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal must be present AT THE TIME of the act. Not afterwards.

[phatcatholic]

did everything else sound ok to you, fides? i felt like i was introducing some really bold ideas.....

[StColette]

the post sounds great to me Phat. nice job

[Guest JeffCR07]

Phat, while I am sure you avoiding this particular nuance so as not to add to the confusion of the issue, I think it is very important to note that one can be forgiven a mortal sin if they die in a state of desiring the Sacrament. Thus, just because a person dies before he or she can make it to the confessional does not necessarily mean that person is going to go to hell, because if someone dies in a state of perfect contrition and desire of the Sacrament, we believe that God will forgive them of their sin.

The distinction should be made that an act of perfect contrition necessitates a desire for the Sacrament, and, as such, personal prayer [i]in and of itself[/i] can only forgive venial sin, while it is the Sacrament itself, or the desire thereof, that forgives mortal sin.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[phatcatholic]

hehe, yea, i was avoiding that particular nuance still important info tho

[Cure of Ars]

My advice would be to talk with your priest about this. I would even ask him to be your spiritual adviser if he is faithful to the Church.