Liturgical Abuse

[Fides_et_Ratio]

This may perhaps be the wrong forum for this topic, in which case, I apologize, but I didn't want it to get buried in Open Mic.

I have decided to write a letter to the new associate pastor at my parish outlining the liturgical abuses and citing official Church documents that define them as such. NOT as any sort of attack on him.. just hoping that he will cease all the abuses. I am also sending a copy to the pastor, so that he is aware, etc.


However, I think I need a little bit of help finding a few citations, and I'd also like someone to "proof" my letter to make sure it doesn't sound offensive or out of line.


I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that priests are supposed to wear the traditional black shirt & roman collar underneath all the other liturgical garb, correct? (he was wearing a white polo shirt unbuttoned at the top this morning) Anyone remember where in the GIRM (I think it's the GIRM) this is?

I am still working on trying to figure out which of the 'other' Eucharistic Prayers he is using. He has daily Mass again this Friday, and it is my intention to go and read along to see if I can find which one he is using (if indeed he is using one). However, I do not have the Children's prayers (which, he's not supposed to be using anyway), but just in case, because I have a feeling that if he's using on/basing a made up one off of a preexistent one, it's one of the Children's ones. But my youth minister said it would be okay if I looked in the Sacramentary after Mass... it gets left on the presider's chair.


So, does anyone know the GIRM citation, and/or any suggestions? I'll have the letter finished Friday after Mass.

[MorphRC]

When your done, pass it to one of the priests here on PM, get them to check it out, safe way to go.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 18 2004, 12:44 PM'] I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that priests are supposed to wear the traditional black shirt & roman collar underneath all the other liturgical garb, correct? (he was wearing a white polo shirt unbuttoned at the top this morning) Anyone remember where in the GIRM (I think it's the GIRM) this is?
[/quote]
I don't think you will find it. Priests are to wear "suitable ecclesiastical dress , in accordance with the norms established by the Episcopal Conference and the legitimate local custom" ([i]Directory on the Ministry and Life of Priests[/i], Congregation for the Clergy, no. 66). The bishop would set the norms as to whether a collar is required under the Mass vestments.

[phatcatholic]

ummmm, yea, p0lar bear is our official "GIRM/Canon Law/Church Documents Scholar Guy"

feel free to put that in your signature until you get 3000 posts

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Do you know where I would be able to find liturgical norms for my diocese? Our diocesan website isn't helpful in matters like that.

Although, the absence of the roman collar doesn't seem to be "suitable [i]ecclesiastical[/i] dress"? Not to be argumentative, but how is even a polo shirt "ecclesiastical dress" at all?

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 18 2004, 01:40 PM'] Do you know where I would be able to find liturgical norms for my diocese? Our diocesan website isn't helpful in matters like that.

Although, the absence of the roman collar doesn't seem to be "suitable [i]ecclesiastical[/i] dress"? Not to be argumentative, but how is even a polo shirt "ecclesiastical dress" at all? [/quote]
You would have to contact the diocesan offices. The will have a director of liturgy (or some similar title).

As far as the ecclesiastical dress, the vestments would qualify. The roman collar is simply what he is wearing under the ecclesiastical dress.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 18 2004, 11:40 AM'] Do you know where I would be able to find liturgical norms for my diocese? Our diocesan website isn't helpful in matters like that.

Although, the absence of the roman collar doesn't seem to be "suitable [i]ecclesiastical[/i] dress"? Not to be argumentative, but how is even a polo shirt "ecclesiastical dress" at all? [/quote]
fides,

i'll have to admit that liturgical norms (and the documents that set them forth) are my weak point. however, this is the perfect place for you thread, since your work here is an apologetic endeavor and a defense of the liturgy of the mass. i'll try my best to see what i can find. however, i have no doubt that others will be more helpful.

your letter to the bishop will be ROCK SOLID by the time we're done w/ it

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 18 2004, 12:43 PM'] You would have to contact the diocesan offices. The will have a director of liturgy (or some similar title).

As far as the ecclesiastical dress, the vestments would qualify. The roman collar is simply what he is wearing under the ecclesiastical dress. [/quote]
I'll try that. Thanks. (especially for your patience!)


Though, I still want to say that the roman collar has to have some sort of significance as being ecclesiastical dress. Is there an official definition of ecclesiastical dress somewhere? I'm thinking, "church garb" when I see it, and automatically the collar comes to mind. The collar is what defines the priest from the laity... how can he celebrate Mass without it? This is not making much sense to me.

Edited August 18, 2004 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 18 2004, 12:45 PM'] fides,

i'll have to admit that liturgical norms (and the documents that set them forth) are my weak point. however, this is the perfect place for you thread, since your work here is an apologetic endeavor and a defense of the liturgy of the mass. i'll try my best to see what i can find. however, i have no doubt that others will be more helpful.

your letter to the bishop will be ROCK SOLID by the time we're done w/ it

pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
thanks, phat! Though I'm not sending one to the Bishop just yet. I want to see if the new associate pastor will fix these things on his own first.






I have a second question, is there a good place to find definitions of "church terms" (for lack of better wording). I don't want to say "ad-libbing" without defining exactly what I mean by that. Should I just use webster?

i.e., this is how my letter is somewhat shaping up:

Ad-libbing, (August 2, 2004)
"May the Lord wash away our inequities, and cleanse us all from our sins"
rather than,
"Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin." (1970, Missal)
etc.

but I wanted to note somewhere how I was defining things (just to be specific). I want to cover all my bases.

[Theoketos]

Actually I am praying about do some same action. We must pick your battles.

In my case the priest really has forgotten what makes the liturgy sacred. There is very little reference at mass. There is no noble or simple aspect apparent. God Bless my priest he is the personi Christi, and I think that he has forgotten that in slopiness. Let us pray that the Host which daily Caresses effects him!

Any way

I asked several people, not in my parish, and several have degrees in Liturgy, here are the two things every one said:

1) Earn the rite to speak

2) Contact the proper diocesean office first.

If you give me diocease I can get the office for you. (I have many contacts in the Industry ehehe)

And above all act with charity.

Maybe you could write the letter in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Blessed Be God!

Ave Maria,

James III

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 18 2004, 12:13 PM'] I have a second question, is there a good place to find definitions of "church terms" (for lack of better wording). I don't want to say "ad-libbing" without defining exactly what I mean by that. Should I just use webster? [/quote]
these may help:
--[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/dictaintro.htm"]Catholic Dictionary[/url]
--[url="http://www.archstl.org/links/gloss-mass.htm"]Catholic Glossary[/url]
--[url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/glossary.htm"]Glossary of Church Terms[/url]
--[url="http://eapi.admu.edu.ph/bodega/glossary.htm"]A Catholic Glossary[/url]
--[url="http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/dictionary_terminology.htm"]A Dictionary of Orthodox Terminology[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/almanac/"]Catholic Almanac[/url]
--[url="http://www.osv.com/catholicalmanac/"]Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Almanac[/url]

the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/"][b]New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia[/b][/url] will be of great service as well.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Thanks, theoketos.

I know who to call in my diocese (but thanks again for the offer!).


So here's the deal (or at least, what I can type out coherently of it).


Our previous associate pastor left in July to get a degree in Canon Law. Our new associate pastor came a few days later. Every Mass that the new associate pastor celebrates is filled with ad-libbing-- of the worst kind.

My biggest concern was the Eucharistic Prayer. I can't tell which one he's using (at all). I asked him about it, but rather than answer me, he tried to tell me how many prayers there are (i.e., "oh there are 15 or 16 different ones to choose from"). I looked up the Eucharistic Prayers other than the 4 "main" ones (which, to my calculations only total at most, 13, but I won't poke at his math). They don't seem familiar either. It is my fear (and opinion) that the new associate pastor is making up the Eucharistic Prayer while using (I think) one of the prayer's for Masses with Children as a guide (these prayers are located at the back of the Sacramentary, which he does have open during the prayer... the words just don't seem to match any of them).

He won't talk to me. Everytime I see him at the church, and move towards him like I want to speak with him, he immediately involves himself in doing something else, or talking with another person and "just doesn't have the time" to speak with me.

I have spoken with the youth minister at my parish (very orthodox, holds a theology degree... i.e., she knows what she's talking about). And she is supportive of my approaching the new associate pastor to figure out what's going on. She is very worried about the Eucharistic Prayer as well because she can't tell either (it sounds different every time). She's of the opinion I should write straight away to the Bishop, but I think it would be more prudent to try again (in writing) to speak with the associate pastor. Since I'm writing a letter, I'm also going to address a copy to the pastor--I spoke with him briefly about the Eucharistic Prayers, but other than that, I don't think he is aware of the extent of the ad-libbing (esp. about the rest of the Liturgy). And I think it's probably better if he is involved as well (after all, he is the pastor).

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 18 2004, 02:13 PM'] I have a second question, is there a good place to find definitions of "church terms" (for lack of better wording). I don't want to say "ad-libbing" without defining exactly what I mean by that. Should I just use webster?

i.e., this is how my letter is somewhat shaping up:

Ad-libbing, (August 2, 2004)
"May the Lord wash away our inequities, and cleanse us all from our sins"
rather than,
"Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin." (1970, Missal)
etc.

but I wanted to note somewhere how I was defining things (just to be specific). I want to cover all my bases. [/quote]
Simply refer to them as "modifications," "alterations," or "changes" in/to the wording.

Also, since this is your first letter to an associate pastor, you don't necessarily need a list of "you said xyz when you were supposed to say abc."

Start of with a more general "I've noticed on several occasions that you did not follow the words provided in the Sacramentary." You can offer a couple of examples (really, pick the worst so it doesn't look petty), but don't necessarily include dates, etc.

Also, what part of the Eucharistic prayer do you think he is changing? I was just looking in the Sacramentary, and there are a lot of different options for the part before the Holy, Holy...so if it's then, he's probably OK.

[p0lar_bear]

Also, always start at the lowest level. Don't even think about writing the bishop until you've contacted the priest himself and the pastor. If you contact the bishop before you contact the priest, the bishop will just send you to the priest.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 18 2004, 02:04 PM'] I'll try that. Thanks. (especially for your patience!)


Though, I still want to say that the roman collar has to have some sort of significance as being ecclesiastical dress. Is there an official definition of ecclesiastical dress somewhere? I'm thinking, "church garb" when I see it, and automatically the collar comes to mind. The collar is what defines the priest from the laity... how can he celebrate Mass without it? This is not making much sense to me. [/quote]
Outside of Mass, yes, the roman collar (or habit for those in an order) is an identifying mark. During Mass, however, the alb, chausible, stole, etc. serve that purpose. The roman collar is not part of the required vestments for Mass.

Ecclesiastical dress is defined by the bishops (often as a conference, so in our case, the USCCB).