The Whore Of Babylon - Apo. 17 Explained.

[MorphRC]

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[b]Aura tectum Militis , Aura instruo Militis & Aura magister Militis. Amen Amen.[/b]
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[color=gray][font="Times"][b]The Whore Of Babylon - Apo. 17[/b][/color][/font]
[color=gray][b]Apocalypse 17 Explained.[/b][/color]

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[b]Basic Scripture Used To Attack The Church:[/b]

[b]Apocalypse[/b] 17:1-3
[b]Apocalypse[/b] 17:4-6
[b]Apocalypse[/b] 17:7-11
[b]Apocalypse[/b] 17:12-17

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[b]I[/b] will begin from the top as follows: [i]Apocalypse 17:1-3[/i]; [i]17:4-6[/i] and so on, down the list of Scriptural References.

[b]Bible Translations Used:[/b]

Latin Vulgate: 409AD - Abbreviated: [LV 409AD]
Douay Rheims: 1609AD - Abbreviated: [DR 1609AD]

[b]Source[S]:[/b]

[url="http://www.latinvulgate.com/"]Latin Vulgate & Douay Rheims Version - 409AD : 1609AD.[/url]

[b]Note:[/b] All Sources are given, in proper [i]bibliographic setting[/i].

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[font="Times"][b]Apocalypse 17:1-3[/b][/font]

[b]1.[/b] et venit unus de septem angelis qui habebant septem fialas et locutus est mecum dicens veni ostendam tibi damnationem meretricis magnae quae sedet super aquas multas

[b]2.[/b] cum qua fornicati sunt reges terrae et inebriati sunt qui inhabitant terram de vino prostitutionis eius

[b]3.[/b] et abstulit me in desertum in spiritu et vidi mulierem sedentem super bestiam coccineam plenam nominibus blasphemiae habentem capita septem et cornua decem[b][LV 409AD][/b]

[b]->[/b]

[b]1.[/b] And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven vials and spoke with me, saying: Come, I will shew thee the condemnation of the great harlot, who sitteth upon many waters:

[b]2.[/b] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication. And they who inhabit the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her whoredom.

[b]3.[/b] And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.[b][DR 1609AD][/b]

[b]---[/b]

[b]1. The judgment is announced[/b]

This scene is a flash-back, focusing on the most significant element of the judgment which has just been completed. What John is about to be shown1 needs to be comprehended in the light of revelation; hence the expression 'in the spirit'.2 John is taken into the wilderness: a place of deeper perception and interiorisation.

The image of a whore is used in the Old Testament for infidelity towards Yahweh,3 with special reference to the achieving of commerical greatness through the exercise of injustice.4

The whore seated on many waters is Rome whose empire was largely based on her maritime strength. The kings of the earth (1:5) have gone along with the value system of Rome and are besotted with the benefits which they have derived from it. The imagery used in this passage had been used of Babylon:

You [inhabitants of Babylon] who live by many waters, rich in treasures, your end has come, the thread of your life is cut. - Jeremiah 51:33

Babylon made all the earth drunken; the nations drank of her wine and so the nations went mad. Suddenly Babylon has fallen! - Jeremiah 51:7

When John says that he was carried into a wilderness, he may also be refering to the desoation that he is about to witness.5

As whirlwinds in the Negeb sweep on, it comes from the desert, from a terrible land. A stern vision is told to me; the betrayer betrays, and the destroyer destroys. - Isaiah 21:1 (re Babylon's fall.)[b][S][/b]

1: See 1:1; 4:1; 21:9,10; 22:1,6,8
2: See 1:10; 4:2, 21:10.
3: For example, Hosea 1-3; Isaiah 1:21; 57:7-13; Jeremiah 3:1,,4:4
Ezekiel 16:23-63; Psalm 73:27.
4: Tyre: Isaiah 23:16; NinevehL nahum 3:1-7
5: See 17:16. Also 12:6-14

[b][S]-[/b] [i]The Apocalyse, An Introductory Commentary[/i], by Michael Fallon, MSC. Chevalier Press 2002. [b]Nihil Obstat:[/b] Rev. Wim Hoekstra, B. Th., L.S.S., [b]Imprimatur:[/b] + John Heaps, D.D., V.G., Sydney, N.S.W. [i]NRSV Used[/i].
[b][S]-[/b] [i]The Apocalyse, An Introductory Commentary[/i], by Michael Fallon, MSC. Chevalier Press 2002. [i]Pg 96, Interlude: The Fall of Rome[/i].

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[font="Times"][b]Apocalypse 17:4-6[/b][/font]

[b]4.[/b] et mulier erat circumdata purpura et coccino et inaurata auro et lapide pretioso et margaritis habens poculum aureum in manu sua plenum abominationum et inmunditia fornicationis eius

[b]5.[/b] et in fronte eius nomen scriptum mysterium Babylon magna mater fornicationum et abominationum terrae

[b]6.[/b] et vidi mulierem ebriam de sanguine sanctorum et de sanguine martyrum Iesu et miratus sum cum vidissem illam admiratione magna [b][LV 409AD][/b]

[b]->[/b]

[b]4.[/b] And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication.

[b]5.[/b] And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery: Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications and the abominations of the earth.

[b]6.[/b] And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration. [b][DR 1609AD][/b]

[b]---[/b]

[b]53[/b]

[b]4.[/b] [i]a golden cup in her hand:[/i] The inhabitants of the earth drink out of this cup (v2); cf. Jer 25:15-29; 51:7, [i]Cebes[/i] 5.1-2 (see [i]The Tabula of Cebes[/i] [ed. J.T. Fitzgerald and L.M. White; Chico, 1983]).

[b]5.[/b] [i]forehead:[/i] Roman prostitutes wore labels bearing their names on their foreheads (Charles, [i]Commentary[/i] 2. 65). The image also brings to mind the characterizations of the followers of the Lamb and of the beast (7:3; 9:4; 13:16, 14:1,9; 20:4; 22:4). [i]a mystery:[/i] In early Christian literature, [i]mysterion[/i] was used for a heavenly secret revealed to humanity by God. Such a secret might involve present but hidden realities, the future, or the interpretation of difficult texts (usually Scripture); see Mark 4:11 par: Rom 11:25; 16:25; 1 Cor 2:7; 15:51; Eph 1:9, Col 1:26; 2 Thess 2:7; Rev 1:20; 10:7 (-> Colossians, 54:17, Ephesians, 55:17).[b][S][/b]

[b]6 [6b-18][/b] An interpretation of the vision is here given.[b][S1][/b]

[b][S]-[/b] [i]New Jerome Biblical Commentary[/i], 2nd Edition, Published 1990, Reprint: 1995,1996 & 2000. [i]Authors & Editors: Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J. & Roland E. Murphy, O'CARM[/i]. [b]Nihil Obstat & Impartiur[/b]
[b][S]-[/b] [i]NJBC[/i], 2nd Ed. Pub. 1990, Repr: 1995,1996 & 2000. - Page 1012, The Apocalyse (Revelation) (17:1-18:1), [63:53-54], 53.
[b][S1]-[/b] [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation17.htm#foot5"]USCCB NAB: Revelation 17:6 [Footnote][/url]

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[font="Times"][b]Apocalypse 17:7-11[/b][/font]

[b]7.[/b] et dixit mihi angelus quare miraris ego tibi dicam sacramentum mulieris et bestiae quae portat eam quae habet capita septem et decem cornua

[b]8.[/b] bestiam quam vidisti fuit et non est et ascensura est de abysso et in interitum ibit et mirabuntur inhabitantes terram quorum non sunt scripta nomina in libro vitae a constitutione mundi videntes bestiam quia erat et non est

[b]9.[/b] et hic est sensus qui habet sapientiam septem capita septem montes sunt super quos mulier sedet et reges septem sunt

[b]10.[/b] quinque ceciderunt unus est alius nondum venit et cum venerit oportet illum breve tempus manere

[b]11.[/b] et bestia quae erat et non est et ipsa octava est et de septem est et in interitum vadit [b][LV 409AD][/b]

[b]->[/b]

[b]7.[/b]And the angel said to me: Why dost thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman and of the beast which carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

[b]8.[/b]The beast which thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit and go into destruction. And the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was and is not.

[b]9.[/b]And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth: and they are seven kings.

[b]10.[/b]Five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come: and when he is come, he must remain a short time.

[b]11.[/b]And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction. [b][DR 1609AD][/b]

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[b]7 [8][/b] Allusion to the belief that the dead Nero would return to power (Rev 17:11); see the note on Rev 13:3.

[b]8 [9][/b] Here is a clue: literally, "Here a mind that has wisdom." Seven hills: of Rome.

[b]9 [10][/b] There is little agreement as to the identity of the Roman emperors alluded to here. The number seven (Rev 17:9) suggests that all the emperors are meant; see the note on Rev 1:4.

[b]10 [11][/b] The beast: Nero; see the note on Rev 17:8.[b][S][/b]

[b][S]-[/b] [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation17.htm#foot7"]USCCB NAB: Revelation 17:7-11 [Footnotes][/url]

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[font="Times"][b]Apocalypse 17:12-17[/b][/font]

[b]12.[/b] et decem cornua quae vidisti decem reges sunt qui regnum nondum acceperunt sed potestatem tamquam reges una hora accipiunt post bestiam

[b]13.[/b] hii unum consilium habent et virtutem et potestatem suam bestiae tradunt

[b]14.[/b] hii cum agno pugnabunt et agnus vincet illos quoniam Dominus dominorum est et rex regum et qui cum illo sunt vocati et electi et fideles

[b]15.[/b] et dixit mihi aquas quas vidisti ubi meretrix sedet populi sunt et gentes et linguae

[b]16.[/b] et decem cornua quae vidisti et bestiam hii odient fornicariam et desolatam facient illam et nudam et carnes eius manducabunt et ipsam igni concremabunt

[b]17.[/b] Deus enim dedit in corda eorum ut faciant quod illi placitum est ut dent regnum suum bestiae donec consummentur verba Dei [b][LV 409AD][/b]

[b]->[/b]

[b]12.[/b]And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom: but shall receive power as kings, one hour after the beast.

[b]13.[/b]These have one design: and their strength and power they shall deliver to the beast.

[b]14.[/b]These shall fight with the Lamb. And the Lamb shall overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings: and they that are with him are called and elect and faithful.

[b]15.[/b]And he said to me: The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples and nations and tongues.

[b]16.[/b]And the ten horns which thou sawest in the beast: These shall hate the harlot and shall make her desolate and naked and shall eat her flesh and shall burn her with fire.

[b]17.[/b]For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled. [b][DR 1609AD][/b]

[b]---[/b]

[b]11 [12-13][/b] Ten kings who have not yet been crowned: perhaps Parthian satraps who are to accompany the revived Nero (the beast) in his march on Rome to regain power; see the note on Rev 13:3. In Rev 19:11-21, the Lamb and his companions will conquer them.

[b]12 [16-18][/b] The ten horns: the ten pagan kings (Rev 17:12) who unwittingly fulfill God's will against harlot Rome, the great city; cf Ezekiel 16:37.[b][S]-[/b]

[b][S]-[/b] [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation17.htm#foot11"]USCCB NAB: Revelation 17:12-18 [Footnotes][/url]

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The victory of the risen Christ is declared in verse fourteen. Those with him are the 144,000 of 14:1-5: those who, here on earth, are faithful to the call and the choice to be disciples of Jesus in effecting the reign of God. 'Lord of lords' and 'Kings of kings' are titles taken from the Old Testament.1

The waters of verse fifteen represent all the subject peoples of the empire.

John takes many of his images from the Hebrew Bible: 'desert (see Ezekiel 26:19 in reference to Tyre); 'naked' (see Ezekiel 16:39 in reference to Jerusalem); 'hate': (see Ezekiel 23:29); 'devour her flesh' (see Psalm 27:2 and Micah 3:3); 'burn her with fire' (see Jeremiah 34:22).

He declares that the power of Rome will be broken through revolt from within the empire (17:16).[b][S][/b]

1: 'Lord of lords': Deutronomy 10:17; Psalm 136:3; 'king of kings': 2 maccabees 13:4; (Also, 'Lord of kings', Daniel 2:47).

[b][S]-[/b] [i]The Apocalyse, An Introductory Commentary[/i], by Michael Fallon, MSC. Chevalier Press 2002. [b]Nihil Obstat:[/b] Rev. Wim Hoekstra, B. Th., L.S.S., [b]Imprimatur:[/b] + John Heaps, D.D., V.G., Sydney, N.S.W. [i]NRSV Used[/i].
[b][S]-[/b] [i]The Apocalyse, An Introductory Commentary[/i], by Michael Fallon, MSC. Chevalier Press 2002. [i]Pg 98, 2: Rome to be destroyed[/i].

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Pax Christi Iesu

[phatcatholic]

Its killin me that i don't have access to the Jerome Biblical Commentary like you do!! also, that "Apocalypse: Introductory Commentary" wouldn't happen to be online anywhere, would it? (i'm not holding my breath.....)

what i [i][b]do[/b][/i] have is the Navarre Commentary on the Book of Revelations, so i would like to add what it has to say on these verses. i'll have to type it out by hand, so bear with me:


[i][b]Navarre Bible Commentary[/b][/i]
[b][color=blue]Rev 17:1-6[/color][/b]
An angel joins the seer to explain the vision to him. Again the imagery used is very evocative of the Old Testament: the great harlot recalls the cities of Tyre and Nineveh, which Isaiah and Nahum described as harlots (cf. Is 23:16-17; Nah 3:4). As explained in 17:15, the "many waters" are the peoples ruled by the great harlot. Some commentators have interpreted this as a reference to their ultimate downfall, which would precipitate the collapse of the ancient world.

The metaphor of prostitution is used in the Old Testament to refer to idolatry and also alliances with foreign powers (cf. Ezek 16:15, 23-24; 23:1-20). In the present case, the power and influence of Rome was practically universal, given the extent of the Empire. It is called Babylon because Babylon was the prototype of cities hostile to God (cf. v. 5; Is 21:9; Jer 51:1-19). It is characterized by its wealth, its immoral influence (v. 4) and its horrendous crimes against the Christian martyrs (cf. v. 6), who, according to the Roman historian Tacitus, "were abused in various ways: they were covered with hides to be set upon by dogs, or nailed to crosses, or burned alive and used as torches to light up the darkness" ([i]Annals[/i], 15, 44).

The figure of the great harlot, and the influence she wields, is also interpreted as referring to impurity; St John of the Cross, for example, explains the passage as follows: "This phrase 'have become drunk' should be noted. For, however little a man may drink of the wine of this rejoicing, it at once takes hold of the heart, as wine does to those who have been corrupted by it. So, if some antidote is not at once taken against this poison, to expel it quickly, the life of the soul is put in jeopardy" ([i]Ascent of Mount Carmel[/i], 3, 22).


[b][color=blue]Rev 17:7-8[/color][/b]
The angel explains the meaning of the beast (v. 8), its seven heads (v. 9) and its ten horns (v. 12), and then reveals the identity of the great harlot (v. 18). However, what he says is still enigmatic, in keeping with the style of apocalyptic texts, which are written in a kind of code to protect the writer from being sought out and punished.

The phrase "was, and is not" (v. 8) is a kind of counter and parody of "him who is and was and is to come" (Rev 1:4). It identifies the antichrist who is headed for perdition (v. 11); St Paul also calls him "the son of perdition" (2 Thess 2:3). When it speaks of the beast reappearing ("is to come"), this refers, according to some commentators, to the legend about Nero returning at the head of the Parthians to avenge himself on his enemies in Rome. However, what the sacred writer really means is that the beast, which had disappeared, will return to wage war on Christians (cf. Rev 11:7; 13:1ff).


[color=blue][b]Rev 17:9-15[/b][/color]
In v. 9 St John warns the reader that what he is writing has a deeper, hidden meaning, rich in wisdom. He is inviting the reader to interpret what he is reading, to discern an implicit, concealed meaning: the harlot is the city of Rome (cf. 13:18 on the name of the emperor), as is fairly plain from the reference to the seven hills on which the harlot is seated. Pliny the Elder describes Rome as "complexa septem montes" ([i]Historia naturalis[/i], 3, 9), nestling on seven hills.

The beast's seven heads (cf. 17:3) also stand for seven kings. From what the author says we can deduce that he is referring to seven emperors. The sixth, alive when St John is writing, would be Domitian, and the first five would be Caligula (37-41), Claudius (41-54), Nero (54-68), Vespassian (69-78) and Titus (79-81); with Nerva (96-98) as the seventh. The beast is number eight, though it can also be taken as one of the seven, for it will be as cruel as one of them--Nero. The ten kings (v. 12) stand for those whom Rome extablished as kings in the nations it conquered, rulers subject to the emperor.

The description of Christ as the Lamb (cf. 5:6) forms a contrast here with the beast. Through his death and resurrection, this humble figure has been made King and Lord of the entire universe (cf. Acts 2:32-36) and already truly reigns in the hearts of Christians. Therefore his victory over the powers of evil, no matter how strong they may be, is assured. As Pius XI rightly put it "it has long been a common custom to give Christ the metaphorical title of 'king', because of the high degree of perfection whereby he excels all creatures [. . .]. He is king of our hearts, too, by reason of his charity 'which surpasses knowledge' (Eph 3:19) and his mercy and kindness, which draw all men to him; for there never was, nor ever will be a man loved so much and so universally as Jesus Christ" ([i]Quas primas[/i], 6).


[color=blue][b]Rev 17:16-18[/b][/color]
With words taken from Ezekiel's prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem (by the very kingdoms with which Judah had made idolatrous alliances instead of trusting in Yahweh: cf. 16:30-41; 23:25-29), St John now predicts the punishment which will befall Rome, at the hands too of those nations which, like Rome and under her influence, serve the beast, that is, have fallen into idolatrous absolutism, which prevents the exercise of freedom of conscience. God makes use of the forces of evil to punish those very people who follow evil ways.


pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

Thanks guys for this, Rev is always a difficult Book for me to totally understand !!

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 17 2004, 04:11 PM'] Thanks guys for this, Rev is always a difficult Book for me to totally understand !! [/quote]
well, i've got the hook up, so just let me know if you have any more questions

[StColette]

hehe thanx phat I'm sure I'll have plenty for ya lol

[MorphRC]

2 Sources Now. Awesome!

[StColette]

Whore of Babylon


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Judging by the criteria of biblical fundamentalism (literal words literally understood) it is certain that there is no mention of the Catholic Church in the book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon. By contortions of interpretation (not biblical literalism) some groups and individuals equate the Whore in Revelation 17:9 with the Catholic Church since Rome is the famous city of seven hills and the Church's principal See is Rome. This position is untenable, both factually and from the only words of Scripture which tell us of the actual doctrine of the Antichrist, those of the apostle John in his letters.

There would seem to be two choices, either interpret Rev 17:9 absolutely literally or according to some interpretive key that is metaphorical, allegorical or otherwise non-literal. Lets look first at literal interpretation.

"The seven heads represent seven hills on which the woman sits." First of all, no Pope has ever lived or had his "seat" (cathedra or cathedral) on any of the seven hills of Rome. These hills are small hillocks (Capitoline, Palatine, Esquiline, Aventine and three lesser "bumps" in central Rome) where the religion and government of pagan Rome was situated. The Catholic Church's headquarters at the Lateran (the cathedral) and at the Vatican (where the Pope lives) does not coincide with them. At the time that John wrote Revelation the Christians of Rome lived mostly in Trastevere (trans Tiber), a district "across the Tiber" from the City and adjacent to the Vatican hill where St. Peter was crucified and buried. The Vatican is on top of that burial site and is today its own city-state distinct from Rome and Italy.

So, of what was St. John speaking when he wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos around 96 AD? Obviously of the pagan imperial system situated on the Seven Hills, especially the Capitoline (the religious and political center) and the Palatine (the imperial palace). This pagan power persecuted the Church of Rome in Nero's day (64-67 AD), and in the mid-90s under Domitian was persecuting Christians throughout the Roman world. Domitian was considered by the people a re-incarnation of the evil, but well-liked, Nero (the head that lives again). While the antichrist Nero persecuted only the Christians of Rome, Domitian extended that persecution throughout the empire. Both are thus types of the final persecutor, the Antichrist.

Why the cryptic name Babylon? First, the historical Babylon was the pagan power which persecuted the People of God, the Jews, between 610 and 538 BC, destroying the Temple and dispersing the people. The Romans inherited that mantle of infamy when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, and, more importantly, persecuted the new People of God, the Church. Thus, St. Peter, writing from Rome refers to as "Babylon" (1 Pt. 5:13) - a name any Jew or Christian familiar with the Old Testament would know.

How does this relate to the Antichrist? The future Antichrist will be a world-wide power, essentially pagan, which will persecute the Catholic Church (and orthodox Christians in general) everywhere, as the Babylonians persecuted the Jews and 1st century Rome the Church. These are biblical types! The Babylon of John's day, Rome, stands for the kingdom of the future Antichrist and is no more likely to be situated in Italy than Rome needed to be situated in Babylonia (modern Iraq). John was informing his readers of these prophetic types by drawing their attention to the contemporary fulfillment they found in pagan Rome. The Antichrist will come out of the Christian world (Greco-Roman civilization) to be sure (1 John 2:19), but America is as much an inheritor of that civilization as Europe and just as likely to be the source of the Antichrist.

Finally, after distorting the text and history to read what they want into the Bible, and thereby obtaining God's "blessing" on their hatred of the Catholic Church, some "Christians" ignore the only texts of Scripture which tells us about the religious leanings of the Antichrist. The Catholic faith being a religion you would think they would see what it teaches on the only criteria the Bible actually gives about the Antichrist. In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too). This is the spirit of the Antichrist. There is not a single text in 2000 years, including the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the Catholic Church, her popes, her bishops, her official teachings, her saints, or her acknowledged ecclesiastical authors, deny the Word-made-flesh or the Blessed Trinity. Instead, all of Christianity owes the preservation of these Truths to the Catholic Church, whose great Councils formulated them and whose saints and popes have defended them to this day, often at the cost of martyrdom. The present pope, John Paul II, has written three great encyclical (circular) letters on the Trinity, one for each Divine Person, and he has without a doubt preached Jesus Christ to more people than any other person in human history. The Catholic Church does not have the spirit of the Antichrist but of God, since no one without the Spirit can say "Jesus is Lord" (1 Cor. 12:3), something the Church and Catholics always have done and continue to do!


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Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL


[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/whore_of_babylon.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/whore_of_babylon.htm[/url]

[MorphRC]

I read that last nite. Good article

[StColette]

lol hehe

[MorphRC]

I like Phats, cause it addresses the Scripture, and doesnt add extra-detail that can get in the way. Thats my main aim with my stuff, cause whenever I go to get some information, I have to read all this extra detail that isnt very neccessary.

[StColette]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 18 2004, 06:18 AM'] I like Phats, cause it addresses the Scripture, and doesnt add extra-detail that can get in the way. Thats my main aim with my stuff, cause whenever I go to get some information, I have to read all this extra detail that isnt very neccessary. [/quote]
well excuse me hehehe

[MorphRC]

No. Yours is good. Just some people put so much stuff into it, your like 'Wth has that got to do with this?' lol

[StColette]

lol I know

[MorphRC]

Gotta love your modesty

[StColette]

Hey now !!