Catholics And Evangelicals Growing

[HS_Dad]

Here is a thesis for discussion:

If we are serious about healing in the body of Christ and serious
about unity, we need to be serious in our thinking about Catholics
and Evangelicals.

Catholics need to become more evangelical... (I.E. taking seriously
the call to personal reflection on the very Word of God and letting
it transform our lives and to take seriously the great commission to
tell others of Christ's love, when necessary by words.)

Evangelicals need to become more catholic.... (I.E. understanding
the importance of good ecclessiology, the universality of the church,
and the importance of uniting with that place where the Church of
Christ, subsists, the Catholic Church. Not because of Catholics arguing
for Catholicism out of motifivations of power or control, but because
Christ calls us to unity in John 17:21 "so that the world may believe
that thou hast sent me".)

But, evangelicals don't want to sacrifice
truth for unity... They see modernism, Pelagianism, neo-Feeneyism,
bishops who place damage control over parishioners safety,
lack of respect for other ecclesial traditions, lack of a desire to learn
what Christ is doing outside the boundaries of the Catholic Church,
and human hunger for control by laity (both by a liberal desire for more
governing power and by a traditionalist hunger [probably falsely believed
to be from power motives] to bring people into Catholicism) in the
Catholic Church, and they wonder where is truth or the love of Christ in this??

So, they need to see Catholics living Christlike
transformed lives of love with a love for the Word.
When they see this, they will be able to
open to the possibility that there may be truth in Catholic doctrines....

I can speak from experience that most Evangelicals when hearing overly
intellectualized Catholic arguments immediately have their eyes glaze over...
1 Corinthians 13: 1 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels,
but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."
I Corinthians 13:2 "And if I .. .understand all mysteries and all knowledge,
... but have not love, I am nothing." You don't have credibility until
demonstrating your transformed "brother in Christ" bona fides.

When they meet a Catholic who has been truly transformed by Christ's love,
they say "Woah! Something is going on here. I should listen."

Thoughts???

[Crusader_4]

compltey true HS_Dad you hit the nail on the head.

[willguy]

Nice post.

[Budge]

[quote]
Evangelicals need to become more catholic.... (I.E. understanding
the importance of good ecclessiology, the universality of the church,
and the importance of uniting with that place where the Church of
Christ, subsists, the Catholic Church. Not because of Catholics arguing
for Catholicism out of motifivations of power or control, but because
Christ calls us to unity in John 17:21 "so that the world may believe
that thou hast sent me".) [/quote]

Not going to happen in my case. I left the Catholic Church. You can find my board on EZ board. Type in Catholic Reformation that is what is called. The Catholic church actually stands in the way of Christian unity with their claim that they hold a monopoly over Christiandom. it is a different world sincee Ive been a Baptist. Have church members and myself praying with Lutherans, Methodists, Penecostals--heck Im partnered with a non Baptist even for my board...and I know what unity in CHRIST is all about. The problem is when a church claims THEY ARE IT and everyone else is DEFICIENT, thats a problem.

I see the Catholic church with more open arms to the false religions of the world then to Evangelicals. All the interfaith stuff, ive talked about here and the Catholics and I with the exception of a few Trads DO NOT see eye to eye with me on this stuff. This is deal breaker stuff and intolerable. Anything that goes against Gods first commandment.

While on occasion I know I meet a saved Catholic--Christians can usually detect the light of Christ in someone else--The catholic church in my opinion with its doctrines, practices and with the introduction of out and out neo-paganism and unversalism since the time of Vatican II has nearly obliterated the gospels in its churches. It looks like you see some of those things going on--wsaying this.....

I like Catholics a lot as people but I am VERY VERY worried about them. I pray daily for those in my last church. Im even reading that book Father Joe--about the friendly priest, and even realizing in there while that man is so good-hearted. Oh he surely is but he is even being led into Meister Eckhart false teachings.

[quote]But, evangelicals don't want to sacrifice
truth for unity... They see modernism, Pelagianism, neo-Feeneyism,
bishops who place damage control over parishioners safety,
lack of respect for other ecclesial traditions, lack of a desire to learn
what Christ is doing outside the boundaries of the Catholic Church,
and human hunger for control by laity (both by a liberal desire for more
governing power and by a traditionalist hunger [probably falsely believed
to be from power motives] to bring people into Catholicism) in the
Catholic Church, and they wonder where is truth or the love of Christ in this[/quote]??

I wont go to a church that sacrifices truth for unity, that lets the first commandment be trod upon...Im an ex-Unitarian Unviersalist taken out of that church in one day--these things are unacceptable to me and they are promoted by the Catholic leaders on down. The Catholic Church does have a lack of respect for what they call "sects" and other Christians. Have this mentality they are the only brand and that they hold a monopoly over Christs church. Another thing is the corruption and the New AGe stuff. Apostle succecssion for me collapsed like a house of cards after the sex scandals and there are many doctrines that the Catholic Church has formed AWAY from the Bible.

This is what us Evangelicals see.

For me it came down to this. [b]TRUST IN CHRIST AND HIS WORD or TRUST IN THE MAGISTERIUM.[/b]

I choose the former.

My last church was full of New Agers, had problems with homosexuality--cant go too much into detail, Walsch books on the library shelves, Taize New Age meditation, spiritual poison mixed in almost every day in the dry Masses.

Today I am in a loving church family where the Word of God is proclaimed, where I know what true Christian fellowship is all about and true worship of God is about and where I am given MEAT of the Word to deal even with my own sin.

I think Catholics deserve more then what they are getting. Many Catholics I know are starved for spiritual meat and I beleive way too many of you are going hungry.


[quote]
So, they need to see Catholics living Christlike
transformed lives of love with a love for the Word.
When they see this, they will be able to
open to the possibility that there may be truth in Catholic doctrines....

I can speak from experience that most Evangelicals when hearing overly
intellectualized Catholic arguments immediately have their eyes glaze over...
1 Corinthians 13: 1 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels,
but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."
I Corinthians 13:2 "And if I .. .understand all mysteries and all knowledge,
... but have not love, I am nothing." You don't have credibility until
demonstrating your transformed "brother in Christ" bona fides.

When they meet a Catholic who has been truly transformed by Christ's love,
they say "Woah! Something is going on here. I should listen."[/quote]Thoughts???


Catholics can be loving great people but this does not give truth to the doctrines I believe lead away from Christ. I have many friends I love who are Catholics but some of them live in confusion, some are even pro-choice and have adopted liberal philosophies.

I have met Catholics who have been transformed by Christ's love, what I call saved Catholics but to me that is Gods light reaching in to them, that is inspite of the false doctrines and things they face. That is Gods grace.

[dUSt]

[quote]The Catholic church actually stands in the way of Christian unity with their claim that they hold a monopoly over Christiandom. [/quote]
Makes no sense to me. Let's compare it to clothing. There's Polo, which you can buy in the store, and then there's Bolo, which you can buy on a street corner in the ghetto. According to you, by Polo claiming a monopoly on their brand, they are standing in the way of unity... Who would want Polo and Bolo clothing to be unified into one? That's crazy. Polo [b]must[/b] claim monopoly simply to maintain the credibility and pureness of their brand. This is exactly what the Church is doing--protecting Christianity from imitators. Unity is worthless unless it is a common unity. You do not have that in Protestantism--at best, it's a fragmented unity.

[quote]The catholic church in my opinion with its doctrines, practices [/quote]
Sounds like you're describing the Bible.

[quote]Another thing is the corruption and the New AGe stuff. Apostle succecssion for me collapsed like a house of cards after the sex scandals and there are many doctrines that the Catholic Church has formed AWAY from the Bible.[/quote]
You must have a hard time separating the Church from it's human, fallible members. The Church is a hospital for sinners.

[quote]For me it came down to this. [b]TRUST IN CHRIST AND HIS WORD or TRUST IN THE MAGISTERIUM.[/b][/quote]
Don't you see? You are not trusting Christ, you are trusting a specific translation and interpretation of the Bible. Unless... does Christ speak directly to you?

[quote]I think Catholics deserve more then what they are getting. Many Catholics I know are starved for spiritual meat and I beleive way too many of you are going hungry.[/quote]
Oh, but we have much more than just spiritual meat--we have God's physical flesh and blood. We [b]consume[/b] him, [b]physically[/b] in the Blessed Sacrament. We definitely do NOT deserve more than that. Nobody does.

[quote]I have many friends I love who are Catholics but some of them live in confusion, some are even pro-choice and have adopted liberal philosophies. [/quote]
Oh, and I'm positive that there are no pro-choice Baptists, or Baptists with liberal philosophies. Excellent argument.

I'll pray that you may some day realize that the things you are taught about Christ and the Bible are simply human interpretations--exactly what you think of Catholic doctrines to be. Unless God comes down and personally talks to you, you can only go by what you read and hear from [b]men[/b]. The real question you have to ask yourself is are those [b]men[/b] that you are relying on guided by God? Even so, how do you know they are guided by God all the time? Only the Catholic Church claims infallibility (Apostolic succession). It's the only thing that makes sense if we are to follow Christ in the way that He intends.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Oh, and I'm positive that there are no pro-choice Baptists, or Baptists with liberal philosophies.[/quote]

No kidding, Liberal Protestantism is nearly as old as Protestantism itself. Liberalism, is and always has been very well represented in Protesantism and there are plenty of Baptists that fall into that representation.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Aug 16 2004, 08:03 PM']
No kidding, Liberal Protestantism is nearly as old as Protestantism itself. Liberalism, is and always has been very well represented in Protesantism and there are plenty of Baptists that fall into that representation. [/quote]
yeah, I'm from the Bible belt deep South and there is a little rhyme people say sometimes that goes;

"Where ever there are 4 Baptists gathered, there is always a 5th."

[MorphRC]

[quote]I see the Catholic church with more open arms to the false religions of the world then to Evangelicals.[/quote]

What you see is your own personal hatred and bias. I left the Church in June, and even though I knew it was historically true, I refused to listen to history, and archaeology. Youve closed your 'arms' and mind to what history clearly states, and not from Catholic sources.

[quote]Another thing is the corruption and the New AGe stuff.[/quote]

Such as?

[quote]Apostle succecssion for me collapsed like a house of cards after the sex scandals and there are many doctrines that the Catholic Church has formed AWAY from the Bible.[/quote]

Oy. Go learn what Apostolic succession is, then re-write that, if you can.

[quote]I think Catholics deserve more then what they are getting. Many Catholics I know are starved for spiritual meat and I beleive way too many of you are going hungry.
[/quote]

Sounds like a typical 'emotional blackmail' ploy to make catholics leave the Church.

[quote]Catholics can be loving great people but this does not give truth to the doctrines I believe lead away from Christ. I have many friends I love who are Catholics but some of them live in confusion, some are even pro-choice and have adopted liberal philosophies. [/quote]

But the Holy Spirit does? Is this the same Holy Spirit that has spawned over thousands and thousands of differing interpretations of Scripture? or the one that has created a mess of protestantism by 'Speaking' to people to make your own church?

The only Holy Spirit I know, is the one in the Catholic Church that protects the Pope and The Flock.

[quote]I have met Catholics who have been transformed by Christ's love, what I call saved Catholics but to me that is Gods light reaching in to them, that is inspite of the false doctrines and things they face. That is Gods grace.
[/quote]

More Emotional-Blackmail, and very self-righteous, you think no one here hasnt? What you've felt aint God mate, and it aint good.

[b]----------------------------------------------------------------------[/b]

Btw. whos the Catholic Church?? I only know the CC- Catholic Church.

Heres an interesting quote:

[b]Major Christian Denominations: How Do They Differ?[/b]

[b]Roman Catholics

Origins Organization Authority Special rites[/b]

[b][Origins][/b]

[color=red][u]Traditionally, founded by Jesus who named St. Peter the 1st vicar; developed in early Christian proselytizing, especially after the conversion of imperial Rome in the 4th cent. [/u][/color]

Guess what?

Its a Non-Catholic Source!

[b]Excerpted from Infopedia: The Complete Reference Collection
Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.[/b]

and this one:

[b]Papacy.[/b]

[b]III HISTORY[/b]

[color=blue]Archaeological and literary evidence supports the belief that St Peter was martyred in Rome and even that he was buried in the traditional site under the main altar of St Peter's Basilica[/color]

[b]Papacy.
Microsoft ® Encarta ® Encyclopedia 2004. © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.[/b]

Another Non-Catholic Source.


Pax

Edited August 18, 2004 by MorphRC

[Budge]

Microsoft the Defender of Christianity TM :b



[quote]What you see is your own personal hatred and bias. I left the Church in June, and even though I knew it was historically true, I refused to listen to history, and archaeology. Youve closed your 'arms' and mind to what history clearly states, and not from Catholic sources.[/quote]

Hmm I didnt hate anyone. I had friends in Catholic Church I left.

But the untidy matter of having the Catholic church match what the Unitarian Universalist church taught and things I learned there..UU church as microcosm of the NWO couldnt be ignored.

Who cares what history states...I follow Gods Word and Ive noticed Catholics are taught to follow "history" over scripture even.

History can be biased. Read a Zinn book sometime...beyond obvious.

So you left the church in June...why are you giving me a hard time?
[quote]Such as?[/quote]

Interfaith movement. Try looking it up. Ive done many many threads here on it.

[quote]Oy. Go learn what Apostolic succession is, then re-write that, if you can.[/quote]

Beleiving that Mahoney and Law are todays apostles is as absurd to me as believing that the moon is made of green coagulated milk.


[quote]Sounds like a typical 'emotional blackmail' ploy to make catholics leave the Church.[/quote]

Hey you left....

so....

what get dragged back in already...?

I know it can be hard.

www.freedomfromcatholicism.com

You do what you want. Im not into blackmailing anyone.



[quote]But the Holy Spirit does? Is this the same Holy Spirit that has spawned over thousands and thousands of differing interpretations of Scripture? or the one that has created a mess of protestantism by 'Speaking' to people to make your own church?[/quote]

Protestants have core things in common--sola fide, sola scripture etc. You are the ones with liberal feminists nuns and Rad Trads battling it out. Many churches within one.

[quote]The only Holy Spirit I know, is the one in the Catholic Church that protects the Pope and The Flock.[/quote]

Hmm what protection given the breaking of the first commandment by the Pope?

[quote]More Emotional-Blackmail, and very self-righteous, you think no one here hasnt? What you've felt aint God mate, and it aint good.[/quote]

Hmm write about nice Catholics I know and you go nuts....that is weird.

Self righteous...your claims of emotional blackmail are. I dont even know you to emotionally blackmail you. I dont have any dirt on you to shovel not that I would. Sheesh! so give the overwrought stuff a break!

[Guest JeffCR07]

Budge, all you ever seem to do is get on phatmass every once in a while, post some random opinion-based comment about the Holy Father being UU, then supply more opinion when we logically explain the Church's and the Holy Father's teachings. We have clearly shown that Pope John Paul II is not UU, and, moreover, we have shown that he is merely teaching the same thing that the Church has [i]always[/i] taught.

[quote]Beleiving that Mahoney and Law are todays apostles is as absurd to me as believing that the moon is made of green coagulated milk.[/quote]

You replied with the above quote to a statement asking you to read about the doctrine of apostolic succession. You have obviously not read about said doctrine. We do not, nor have we ever, thought of bishops as "modern day apostles." Rather, the idea of apostolic succession is an acknowledgement of the passing of authority over the laity from one shepard to another, the most brilliant biblical example of which is Timothy, who was commissioned by Paul to lead the Church where he was. Paul did not commission Timothy to interpret the Bible in his own way, and to let others interpret it in their own way, but rather, commissioned him to teach what Paul himself taught to the Church, who should listen to him.

Now, I would ask that you actually learn about the doctrine before you begin attempting to bash it. Such a thing makes one look foolish, and most certainly does not help your case.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff