Ironmonk

[ReformationNow]

So then once a person is "saved" they have all this knowledge of the Bible and what it means?  Why are there so many "born again" Christians with all these different Bible interpretations?

No, what it's saying is that since scripture originated from God, man cannot interpret scripture on his own. He has to have an infallible interpreter, namely, the Church, to help him out.

We're not talking about the authors of individual books of the Bible. We're talking about the ENTIRE Bible. The Church gave us the Bible in the sense that it compiled these books under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and declared them inspired.

So what? It doesn't say go to the Bible; it says go to the Church, which, after all is the pillar and foundation of truth, according to St. Paul.

No, there haven't. Until the great schism in which the Eastern Orthodox Church split from the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church.

So then once a person is "saved" they have all this knowledge of the Bible and what it means? Why are there so many "born again" Christians with all these different Bible interpretations?

NR: No

No, what it's saying is that since scripture originated from God, man cannot interpret scripture on his own. He has to have an infallible interpreter, namely, the Church, to help him out.

NR: Where does it say that?

We're not talking about the authors of individual books of the Bible. We're talking about the ENTIRE Bible. The Church gave us the Bible in the sense that it compiled these books under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and declared them inspired.

NR: No, God gave us the Bible. Just because the Church declares them inspired does not make them so. God declared them inspired.

So what? It doesn't say go to the Bible; it says go to the Church, which, after all is the pillar and foundation of truth, according to St. Paul.

NR: And by church, it means the local assembly of believers. Each individual church is responsible for disciplining it's own members.

No, there haven't. Until the great schism in which the Eastern Orthodox Church split from the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church.

NR: Yes there have.

[Jake Huether]

Your example of the Ethiopian is non-applicable. He was unsaved at the time.

So, if the Ethiopian becomes saved (through baptism presumably), then he knows what the Scriptures means without having someone there to help him. Okay... So now what if he turns his back on God, rejects his baptism and never repents? Does that knowledge disapear again? :P

[ironmonk]

ref,

How do you know it's the Catholic Church that is the Church founded by Christ? After all, there have always been other Christian Churches around.

Historical facts is how I know, and you would to if you would just study.

All the groups that were around in the second or third century were offshots of the Catholic Church and none of them exist today. There were none in the first century except for the Catholic Church.

The oldest Christian Church other than the Catholic Church is Greek Orthodox; from 1054 AD.... the oldest prot church, Luther's from 1517 AD.

As for your other statements you are simply mistaken. If you want to debate the topic, please come up with some writings before 400 AD to show your interpretation of scripture is the correct one....

Why do you keep pulling for straws on topics that you know the Catholic Church holds the truth?

God Bless,

ironmonk

[ReformationNow]

ref,

Historical facts is how I know, and you would to if you would just study.

All the groups that were around in the second or third century were offshots of the Catholic Church and none of them exist today. There were none in the first century except for the Catholic Church.

The oldest Christian Church other than the Catholic Church is Greek Orthodox; from 1054 AD.... the oldest prot church, Luther's from 1517 AD.

As for your other statements you are simply mistaken. If you want to debate the topic, please come up with some writings before 400 AD to show your interpretation of scripture is the correct one....

Why do you keep pulling for straws on topics that you know the Catholic Church holds the truth?

God Bless,

ironmonk

I don't know that the Catholic Church holds the truth.

[ironmonk]

NR: And by church, it means the local assembly of believers. Each individual church is responsible for disciplining it's own members.

The "Church" DOES NOT mean the local assembly of believers.

The Church is hierarchical.

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses "ecclesia" only twice in the NT. This proves Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. God gives His children authority.

Eph. 4:11 - Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ's Church has bishops (episcopoi) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ's Church also has elders or priests (presbuteroi) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ's Church also has deacons (diakonoi). His Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons.

The body of believer's CANNOT anoint... Only the leaders can.

2 Cor 1:21-22 God is the one who firmly establishes (Vulgate, "confirmat",

confirms) us along with you in Christ; it is he who anointed us

and has sealed us, thereby depositing the first payment, the

Spirit, in our hearts. (NAB)

Acts 8:16-20 When the Apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted

the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. The two went

down to these people and prayed that they might receive the

Holy Spirit. It had not as yet come down upon any one of them

since they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord

Jesus. Simon observed that it was through the laying on of

hands that the apostles conferred the Spirit ... (NAB)

Acts 19:1-6 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior

of the country and came to Ephesus. There he found some

disciples to whom he put the question, "Did you receive the

Holy Spirit when you became believers?" They answered, "We have

not so much as heard that there is a Holy Spirit." "Well, how

were you baptized?" he persisted. They replied, "With the

baptism of John." Paul then explained, "John's baptism was a

baptism of repentance. He used to tell the people about the one

who would come after him in whom they were to believe--that is,

Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of

the Lord Jesus. As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit

came down on them and they began to speak in tongues and to

utter prophecies. (NAB)

--------------------

As for "Local Church" and Autonomy ...

Is the Autonomy of the Local Church Biblical?

Some believe that "A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation" (cf. the Southern Baptist "Faith and Message," June 14, 2000). Some go so far as to declare as an article of faith that "We hold that the local church has the absolute right of self-government free from the interference of any hierarchy of individuals or organizations" (GARBC "Articles of Faith"). Is this position Biblical?.

Let us recall that to be autonomous is to be, by definition, a law unto oneself. In point of fact, the Bible tells us that the local New Testament churches submitted to the laws, or canons, established by the leadership of the universal Church by means of general councils. According to the Bible, the governance of the New Testament churches was, in the final analysis, episcopal in nature.

The Council of Jerusalem:

We may prove this quite readily by turning to Acts 15:6-31, where we read of the first General Church Council. A serious question of doctrine arose, and "the apostles and the presbyters came together to consider this matter" (Acts 15:6).

After hearing the arguments and testimony of Peter, Paul and Barnabas, the leader of the Council, James, then passed a decree with the words, "Therefore I judge" (Acts 15:19, 'dio ego krino'). This passage describes no truly democratic process, but rather it describes submission to the judgment of a central ecclesiastical authority.

After receiving the judgment of James, "it pleased the apostles and presbyters together with the whole Church" (Acts 15:22: 'apostolois kai tois presbyterois syn hole ekklesia') to dispatch delegates with a letter promulgating the decree of the Council. The council then drafted a letter in the name of "the apostles and the brother-presbyters" (Acts 15:23: 'hoi apostoloi kai hoi presbyteroi adelphoi'). This phrasing, and especially the apposition of 'presbyteroi' and 'adelphoi', is quite precise in establishing the authority of the decision of the Council in the office of the ministers who serve and lead the Church, as opposed to a democratic process.

Does the phrase "whole Church" here refer to the universal Church, or merely to the entirety of the congregation at Jerusalem. Recalling that the leadership of the Council was comprised of the apostles who were planting local churches in the Hellenistic world, delegates of the Hellenistic churches, and the presbyters of the church at Jerusalem, we can only rightly conclude that they spoke in the name of the universal Church. inDouche, the letter explicitly states that the authors speak in the authority of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28); since Paul tells us that it is by one Spirit that we were baptized into one body (1 Cor. 12:13) which is Christ (1 Cor. 12:27) and over which Christ is the head (1 Eph. 1:22-23), when Luke writes in Acts 15:22 of the leadership of the whole Church assenting to the decree of James which is binding on all Gentile Christians, he is necessarily speaking of the Church in its universal or catholic sense.

The Council then sent the letter to the local churches in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia. This letter remarks that the false doctrine which the council repudiated was in fact discernibly false because "we gave no such commandments" (Acts 15:24). Hence, the Bible tells us that right doctrine is subject to the discernment of the leadership of the whole Church.

The decree of the Council of Jerusalem went on, then, to establish a binding obligation upon all Christians in the local churches of Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: "that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality" (Acts 15:29). Did the local churches bristle at this imposition of doctrine and practice from the ecclesiastical leadership of the whole Church? Not at all, but rather they "rejoiced over its encouragement" (Acts 15:31).

Clearly, the Bible itself sets a precedent for the government of the universal Church by means of General Councils.

Objection: the Apostles Led the Council, and the Apostolic Age Has Passed!

Rather, even in the age of the Apostles, the first Church Council was already necessary!

James was clearly the leading authority at the Council of Jerusalem. James was not an Apostle, but rather the overseer (bishop) of the church at Jerusalem.

So too, while the great Apostles of the New Testament have already gone to their reward, the Bible tells us most clearly that the Apostles were empowered to select and ordain successors, who were to be bishops. Peter spoke of selecting a replacement for Judas, saying "let another take his episcopacy" (or "bishopric", of you prefer; Acts 1:20: 'ten episcopen autou labeto heteros'). Since the Bible tells us that the apostles assembled at the Council of Jerusalem, without making any exceptions, we may safely presume that the Bishop Matthias was there as well.

Objection: Peter Required that Judas' Successor Have Seen the Lord! No Bishops Today Have Seen the Lord!

Peter required that the successor to Judas be selected from among several who had walked with the Lord from the beginning (Acts 1:21). But this requirement was particular and temporal; it was not, according to the Bible, a general and permanent prerequisite for leadership over the whole Church. inDouche, James, who led the Council of Jerusalem and issued its final decree, had not walked with the Lord and had not even believed on Jesus as the Christ until after the Resurrection (Jo. 7:5)!

Elsewhere we find Paul establishing yet other requirements for bishops (1 Tim 3:1-2, Tit. 1:7). In no case does he require that the bishops appointed over the churches have walked with, or even seen, the Lord.

Objection: Acts 15 Mentions Presbyters, not Bishops!

James was, by definition, the leading bishop (overseer) of the church at Jerusalem. Moreover, one must recall that at this early date the office of the presbyter overlapped that of the bishop (Ti. 1:5-7). In Acts 20:17 and 28, for example, Paul refers to the same set of ecclesiastical leaders as both "presbyters" ('presbyterous') and "bishops" ('episkopous'). So too, the presbytery was an ordained office, conferred by the laying on of hands (1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim.1:6). Thus we may be sure that Acts 15 refers to ecclesiastical officials when enumerating the presbyters at the Council of Jerusalem.

It is very clear that the Church means the leaders and not the body of believers.

The Church in this case is the shepards, not the sheep.

No one even believed such a thing until well after 1700 AD...

God Bless,

ironmonk

[nippy316]

*applause for Ironmonk!!*

:D :D :D

[Robyn]

ironmonk....I've discovered why I don't like your replies.

As I've previously stated, I'm an "application" person.

The reason why I don't like your approach is because it's all "history and 'fact'" and no "ironmonk". I'd like to hear HOW you walk your talk...like your testimony.

I'm not a facts and figures person like you, I'm a practical person. If you want me to listen, then maybe you should change your approach ;)

[Joolye]

*applause for Robyn!!*

:D :D :D

[Dave]

ironmonk....I've discovered why I don't like your replies.  

As I've previously stated, I'm an "application" person.

The reason why I don't like your approach is because it's all "history and 'fact'" and no "ironmonk". I'd like to hear HOW you walk your talk...like your testimony.

Why should he conform his replies to what you want to hear, Robyn? Besides, we here at Phatmass (not just ironmonk) go by what God teaches us through His Church, which is the Catholic Church. There's no conflict between "history and fact" and "ironmonk," not to mention the rest of us. History and fact, as well as Jesus' promise of infallibility to His Church, have proven that the Church has the fullness of truth. So as for what we think, we go by what God thinks -- and He has made that quite clear through the truth His Church teaches.

And another thing -- your asking ironmonk about what HE thinks sounds like the typical Protestant notion of "each believer decides for himself." Nope. The truth is NOT subjective. There's only one truth. All these Protestant denominations and individuals with differing biblical interpretation can't all be right!

[ironmonk]

ironmonk....I've discovered why I don't like your replies.

As I've previously stated, I'm an "application" person.

The reason why I don't like your approach is because it's all "history and 'fact'" and no "ironmonk". I'd like to hear HOW you walk your talk...like your testimony.

I'm not a facts and figures person like you, I'm a practical person. If you want me to listen, then maybe you should change your approach 

I talk the talk, and I walk the walk... search my older posts and you will see my story... Also visit my websites: http://www.MaxBrackett.com and http://www.MoralTruth.com

My posts here are very open about my personal life and how I go about it.

Everyone knows that Jesus really was on Earth... Every atheist and agnostic with half a brain knows that there was a man named Jesus, and that He started a Church....

If you wanted to know Jesus, then you would want to know the truth about Jesus... Truth is based in facts. Truth cannot contradict truth.

Likewise...

I cannot really know an actor or actress just by 'believing' that they are this way or that way... I must know the facts about that person to know that person.

All Christians have an obligation to know Christ... we cannot get to know Christ simply by believing... we must study the facts about Christ.

I believe and know that you are real, how can I know you unless I study you?

I've been reading the bible since I was six... over and over... My parents never took me to Mass....by the time I was about 15 it dawned on me that it was wrong that there were so many denominations, it was very clear in Scripture that Jesus built one Church, not 34,000.

I then studied to find the oldest Church, from non-bias sources... I found that the Catholic Church is the oldest and was the first Church, built by Christ... and on studying other denominational beliefs, the Catholic Church is the only Church that could possibly be the Church of the Bible.... How convienant that I was already Catholic. I was very ignorant of the Sacred Traditions.

I fell away from the Church for a while, but I kept reading the Scriptures and praying. Then, one day I was invited to a baptist church... which at the end of the Catholic bashing session the speaker found out I was Catholic...

He then tried to attack me with bible verses... big mistake... he made himself look like a fool when I was able to counter every attack he had against the Church with bible verses. I was smiling from ear to ear... I was happy and respectful... this guy started getting mad...

Here is an article that I posted....

The Birth of My Passion

When I started working at NELCO, I made a new friend named Mick. He is a fellow Christian and we get along good. He had asked what faith I was, and I let him know that I was Catholic. He had a few questions about my faith, but not too many. After a few weeks, he invited me to see a guest speaker at his father in law’s church. Mick was so excited when he told me of this man. He said to me, “This guy is one of the greatest speakers that I have ever heard. I’ve been to many of his sermons.” I smiled and said “I would love to come”.

The church is a large yellow building and it reminds me of some of the gymnasiums up north. The main room is large enough to hold a high school basketball game, with sky blue walls and sea blue carpet. The walls are plain without any decoration. In the Front of the church are 4 large steps for the church choir to stand just next to the podium. The rows of wooden benches are long and hard. After looking around the church I found a seat in the last row.

Tom Farrell the guest speaker has just arrived. Tom has been a traveling evangelical preacher since 1979. He’s an older man with a friendly inviting smile. His hair was slicked back like Elvis, which made it hard to hide his receding hairline. He wore a gray suit, white shirt with a red tie. He spoke with a very distinctive southern sound to his voice.

The sermon is beginning. I cannot believe how loud and animated Tom is. His arms are flailing, as his face is turning beat red. I am afraid that this man is going to give himself a heart attack. For about the first twenty minutes his focus has been on two things. The first is that his tapes are the answers to all of our questions tied in with how great of a guy that he is. Tom has dozens of tapes that can be purchased for $9.95 at the back of the Church. The second is a mockery of the misunderstood doctrines and dogmas of my faith. Everything from how and why the Catholic Church canonizes saints to basically saying that the Catholic Church is the Devil.

The last twenty or thirty minutes was a very detailed description of the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary. The Sorrowful Mysteries are the meditation on the passion of Christ, from the time of His betrayal to the time when He was crucified. The first mystery is the agony in the garden, when Christ was praying so hard that He sweat blood. The second mystery is the scourging at the pillar, where He was whipped with a flail, as pieces of flesh was striped from His back. The third mystery is the crowning of thorns that dug into His skull. The fourth mystery is the carrying of the cross to the Mount of Olives. The fifth and final mystery is the crucifixion where nails where pounded into His hands and feet.

During his entire sermon Tom was a very animated speaker. He did a great job of drawing the crowd into his speech. The volume of his voice was like the roller coaster ride at Bush Gardens called the Montu. I could even see his face brightening up and dimming like the warning lights on radio towers. Sweat was pouring from above his brow across his large forehead. At times I thought his head was going to explode like a thermometer thrown into a fire pit. His voice and arms must have been running from the same part of his brain. The more his voice boomed in the room the higher his arms would rise above his head. The faster he talked the quicker his arms moved and more frantically he would smack the bible with the palm of his hand. At the end of it all, he just flipped a switch and became the soft spoken friendly man again.

On the way to the door, my friend Mick wanted me to meet Tom. Mick introduced us to each other and we shook hands. He had earlier talked about the “calling”, which is when we feel we are being called to preach the word of God. I said to him, “When I was younger I seriously thought about being a Priest, but I did not think I could live up to the vows; so I decided to build a family”. He paused and looked down and started trying to do some mud slinging. He immediately bellowed “Son, you follow false prophets!” then he just stood there as if that was his whole argument. I smiled, for I knew this was going to get interesting. I asked “What do you mean?”, he answered “Your teachers are of the devil. They teach you lies and falsehoods such as your Church teaches you that Mary is equal to Jesus!”. I was dumbfounded and asked “No it does not. Who told you that?”. Not answering my question he then said “In John 3:16 it states that we are saved by Jesus!” I said “That is what the Catholic Church teaches. I’m happy that we agree on that.”. During his pause, I said in a soft voice with a smile, “The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus on Peter as Scripture tells us in St. Matt. 16:18-19, 28:18-20 and St. John 21:15-19.” He simply said “No it wasn’t.”. Tom shouted “I have been studying your faith for many years, I know what it teaches!”. I responded “I’ve been Catholic all of my life, and I’m sorry but what you say is wrong about what the Catholic Church teaches. Where did you study the Catholic Faith from?”, He stuttered and said “It was Catholic periodicals”. Then he went immediately into another question. As I continued to answer his questions, he started to walk around me in circles as he talked. He would ask a question and before I could finish the answer, he would ask another. A good size crowd was beginning to gather around us. I was actually having a theological debate with someone that others wanted to watch. It was exciting. After about twenty minutes of going back and forth on the Scriptures, I thought it best to call it a night, steam was coming out of his ears and his face was redder than the Little Engine that Could. His last statement was “St. Matt. 16:18-19 was about Jesus, not about Peter! You have been lied to! What have you got to say to that?!” Putting my hand out with a smile on my face, I said “I’m sorry, but I think we need to agree to disagree.” Tom huffed and did not say another word, he did not shake my hand, and he walked away.

Tom helped strength my faith that night by turning a spark into a blazing inferno. He did ask some questions that I did not know the answers to. I found myself racing home to get to my computer so that I could search for the answers I did not know. It took about five minutes to find those answers, and I kicked myself for not knowing them during the onslaught that night. I could not let this happen again. I joined a few anti-Catholic message boards, and found myself spending about twenty hours a week defending the faith online. It was my boot camp for Apologetics. These past three years since that night, my knowledge has deepened and my faith has strengthened. I guess St. Augustine was correct when he said “The Catholic Faith may be confirmed even by the dissentions of the heretics.” In his writing “City of God” Book 18, Chapter 51, 419 A.D.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[littleflower+JMJ]

ironmonk...........your amesome.

you inspire me so much!

thanks for being a true soldier for Christ!

God BLEss!

+JMJ

[jmjtina]

ironmonk...........your amesome.

you inspire me so much!

thanks for being a true soldier for Christ!

God BLEss!

+JMJ

ditto.

I'm a practical person as well, but to be a practical person you need to know the facts and history. If not, your foundation is like the house built on sand.

Praise be to God for ppl like Ironmonk! B) B) I always LOVE reading posts like yours and others on this board!

We are one kewl phamily. B)

[ironmonk]

thank you both... but I'm just a sinner... all the props go to the Church.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

Edited September 19, 2003 by ironmonk

[VeraMaria]

Go ironmonk!! We love ya!! What would phatmass be without you??

Vera :)

[Robyn]

Well I read that report and saw your website... all I want to comment on is that yeah it's sad about the minister who couldn't answer your questions, but he is only ONE of many ministers. And his gifting is Evangelism ...maybe you could ask a gifted Teacher the same questions and get a different response.