Ironmonk

[Robyn]

IRON MONK: A couple of verses that I ask you to think long and hard on... Meditate on them for hours if need be...... (and keep reading it over and over... the more you read it and let it soak in, the wider your eyes open)

ok…

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

* And from your own group

Can you prove that any one church has no unfaithful members?

* perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

As a self-confessed disciple who knows enough truth to know when somebody is “perverting the truth” – in my life this will not happen! Not with the holy spirit in my life.

If these people are ‘luring’ me, why do I wholeheartedly follow Jesus?

Why it is that I disagree with some Christians, after searching the bible on topics they bring up?

Why do I have a mind of my own and listen to the holy spirit’s leading?

So how are they luring me away from God, when God is the meaning of my existence?

Now let’s read a few verses prior:

Acts 20:22-23. "And now, COMPELLED BY THE SPIRIT, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that in town after town the HOLY SPIRIT ASSURES ME that imprisonment and suffering are waiting for me. (ISV)

and

John 14:16-17. I will ask the Father to give you another HELPER, TO BE WITH YOU ALWAYS, He is the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, whom the world cannot receive, for it neither sees him nor recognizes him. BUT YOU RECOGNISE HIM, for he ABIDES WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU.

What part of the holy spirit’s input in our lives don’t you understand?

He most certainly abides in me and helps me on a daily basis. I recognize him…why? Because God gave him to me and I received his gift when I was 10 – and he’s been with me every single day since then.

Therefore, if he lives in you, how can he not guide you and lead you? I can imagine him getting frustrated by a person who reads the scriptures and gets confused, but WON’T listen to the holy spirit because they’ve been told they’re incapable of understanding the scriptures through private study!

2 Peter 3:15

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, BE ON YOUR GUARD NOT TO BE LED INTO THE ERROR OF THE UNPRINCIPLED AND TO FALL FROM YOUR OWN STABILITY

Again, I ask, how can following the bible and holy spirit’s leading turn me away from God? Any questions I have, I pray about and seek in the bible. How can I be led astray from the bible when I am referring to it constantly?

17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

My stability comes from God alone.

Again, the different versions:

*according to the wisdom given to him

1Co 12:4-11. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the Spirit is the same; and there are varieties of ministries, but the Lord is the same; and there are varieties of results, but God is the same, and it is he who produces all the results in everyone. TO EACH PERSON HAS BEEN GIVEN THE ABILITY TO DISPLAY THE SPIRIT FOR THE COMMON GOOD. To one has been given a message of wisdom by the Spirit; to another the ability to speak with knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit; to another miraculous results; to another prophecy; to another the ability to distinguish between spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what he wants to each person.

Hey, maybe you’ve been gifted with the same gift of wisdom?

17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, BE ON YOUR GUARD NOT TO BE LED INTO THE ERROR OF THE UNPRINCIPED AND TO FALL FROM YOUR OWN STABILITY.

The NIV version calls them “ignorant and unstable” – yes, I’m sure we have all been like that at one point in our spiritual walk…

I don’t distort scripture – I am guided by the holy spirit and refer to study notes, and if need be, ask others. If all of these 3 things lead to the same result, how can it be wrong?

And in this time in which we’re living, it’s not hard to pick out a “lawless” person in a church!

* fall from your own stability.

My stability is JESUS. If I try to go on a wrong path, the holy spirit will convict

me and bring me back to the right one. I am “stable” in Jesus. So stable in

fact, that I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor

things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor anything above, nor anything

below, nor anything else in all creation can separate us from the love of God that is in

Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38)

2Pe 3:17

(GNB) But you, my friends, ALREADY KNOW THIS. Be on your guard, then, so that you will not be led away by the errors of lawless people and fall from your safe position.

(ISV) And so, dear friends, SINCE YOU ALREADY KNOW THESE THINGS, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people, lest you fall from your secure position.

(KJV+) Ye therefore, beloved, SEEING YE KNOW THESE THINGS BEFORE, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

(MSG) BUT YOU, FRIENDS, ARE WELL WARNED. Be on guard lest you lose your footing and get swept off your feet by these lawless and loose-talking teachers.

I know it’s easy to become complacent – but to realize this and continually turn to God and commit yourself to him – a way to overcome. It’s also important to surround yourself with positive people who will stretch your faith and encourage you. And of course, continual study of the scriptures will keep you on the right track – with the guidance of the holy spirit.

In summary, I already “know these things”. I have been “warned” and I am constantly “on guard”. I know where I stand in God and know where I will go when I die.

I don’t accept things at face-value – as you may have noticed. If a minister preaches, I question his integrity and where I’m unsure of his words, I do my own research.

I have an amesome relationship with God and I can hear his “still, small voice” – if something isn’t right I know. I have the gift of discernment – I can discern a person’s heart and motives without them knowing. I can sense the “evil” in a person, and I can tell when they are distorting the truth. Yes the TRUTH. The truth that is stated in the bible. How can you be led astray by the BIBLE? GOD’S WORD.

Ok, here are some more verses…actually, here is an excerpt from my journal from January 2002.

MATT: 13:2, 3. (study bible notes re: Jesus speaking in parables)

“To those who are honestly searching, the truth becomes clear”.

Re: MATT 13:9 (KJV+) Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

“Human ears hear many sounds, but there is a deeper kind of listening that results in spiritual understanding. If you honestly seek God’s will, you have spiritual hearing, and these parables will give you new perspectives” (NIV Life Application Study Bible, p1676).

That is so true! You could simply see them as stories, or you can REALLY hear them and realize their relevance to your life! Go God! I love them!

(KJV+) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

(MSG) A lot of people, prophets and humble believers among them, would have given anything to see what you are seeing, to hear what you are hearing, but never had the chance. [end journal entry]

[From the Parable of the Four Soils. (Matt.13:10-33)

Hmmm….isn’t it interesting…God TOLD me to read that, and also told me that it was true about my understanding of him and his bible. Funny hey…the holy spirit speaks to me. Is it because I have more of a child-like faith? Am I simply more open to the holy spirit’s leading? Or is it as simple as being open enough and not having any heirs about my knowledge of the bible?

I admit I don’t know the whole bible and there are still areas where I’m learning more. But following God is a lifelong decision, and as long as I live, I’ll keep learning and growing in my relationship with him. I don’t need all the answers now. I know HEAPS more than I did 14 years ago…and I’ll know heaps more in years to come.

1Co 2:14 Whoever does not have the Spirit cannot receive the gifts that come from God's Spirit. Such a person really does not understand them, and they seem to be nonsense, because their value can be judged only on a spiritual basis.

Now, how can you tell me I can’t understand the scriptures in my private study when the bible states many times that I CAN?

Eph 1:8 …that he lavished on us, along with all wisdom and understanding… (ISV)

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so that they might come to understand the Scriptures. (ISV)

Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about this, we have not stopped praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the full knowledge of God's will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding … (ISV)

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (ISV)

John 16:13 YET WHEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH COMES, HE WILL GUIDE YOU

INTO ALL TRUTH. FOR HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN ACCORD, BUT WILL

SPEAK WHATEVER HE HEARS AND WILL DECLARE TO YOU THE THINGS

THAT ARE TO COME. (ISV)

Thank You. *curtsy* :)

[ironmonk]

The letters in the bible were written to the Fathers of the Churches... To the Priests; The ordained. They were not written to the laymen.

No where in the bible does it say that the Holy Spirit guides us in what the Scriptures mean.

In fact... it says quite the opposite.

Acts 8:27 So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,

28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

29 The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."

30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

Why did the Ethiopian need someone to instruct him if the Holy Spirit was guiding him?

2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

If the Holy Spirit was guiding all who read scripture, then this verse would be wrong. The Bible is inspired works of God; how can it be wrong?

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

There is only One Faith established by Christ. If the Holy Spirit was guiding us when reading Scriptures, then we all would have the same interpretation. If the Holy Spirit was guiding us, then none of the scripture would be hard to understand. Just because you think you understand something does not mean you do. If it is not what the Church established by Christ teaches, then you do not understand it.

Though you may pray about it and read scripture... you are unlearned in what the truth is about the correct interpretation of the Scirptures. It was not the "assemblies of God" that gave us the New Testament. Who did?

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The Church has the authority. The Church is the Church that has been making disciples for the past 2000 years. The Church is the group that Jesus gave the authority to teach the truth... The authority to give us the New Testament.

Who better to know the Scriptures than the group that actually saw it happen and the group that has been protecting them ever since they were written?

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

* And from your own group

Can you prove that any one church has no unfaithful members?

That is not the point... the point is the First and Oldest Church is the One True Church. If you want to find the truth to which Church is the Church that was founded by Christ, you need to find the Church that existed in 33 AD until today, and will be here tomorrow until the end of the world... Just as Jesus promised.

* perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

As a self-confessed disciple who knows enough truth to know when somebody is “perverting the truth” – in my life this will not happen! Not with the holy spirit in my life.

It does not say that in the bible... this is something you made up on your own. The Holy Spirit is in your life, but not the way you think it is. A "self-confessed disciple who knows enough truth" - but you do not know enough truth... You don't even know how we got the New Testament. You don't know which Church was first and built by Christ. The Scirpture alone, is not enough truth - as Scripture points out... It is the Church that is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. The Church was not built on the bible - the bible was built on the Church.

If these people are ‘luring’ me, why do I wholeheartedly follow Jesus?

Because you are unlearned. You are a true believer, but you are not in the Church built in 33 AD.

Why it is that I disagree with some Christians, after searching the bible on topics they bring up?

That's a good question - How can you be of One Faith if you believe different things?

Why do I have a mind of my own and listen to the holy spirit’s leading?

If the Holy Spirit was leading you, it would be to truth. Maybe He is leading you to Catholicism; because you are here... Catholicism is the only place that all questions can be answered with truth. The Catholic Church gave us the New Testament because the Catholic Church is the Church built by Christ.

So how are they luring me away from God, when God is the meaning of my existence?

If God is the center of you life... find all the facts you can on Christianity... from the beginning.

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

the "assemblies of God" was a group that left a protestant church... the protestant churches was a group that came out of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has been here on earth since 33 AD. The first bishops of the Catholic Church were the Apostles.

"Perverting the truth" - these men will pervert the truth; not deny it or make it totally different... it will appear that this was truth to the unlearned.

Being without the True Church, then you cannot receive Christ in body and blood as Jesus tells us we must do in John 6. We must eat the flesh and drink the blood if we are to have life within us.

If satan is able to keep people from eating and drinking Jesus, just think how much he has accomplished.

Seek the facts, and you will find the truth.

From www.Britannica.com

Roman Catholicism

Encyclopædia Britannica Article

Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.

http://catholicism.about.com/library/weekl...y/aa011603a.htm

What is the Catholic Church?

Find out what Catholicism really is

Catholicism is the oldest Christian religion in the world. With over one billion people, the Catholic religion remains a strong force despite opposition. Catholicism is over 2,000 years old. Through the years, the religion must be more than a human organization, but a holy one.

Catholicism is the only Christian religion that started during Christ's time. All other Christian religions stemmed from it. The name "the catholic church" first started in the year 107 when Ignatius of Antioch used the title to describe Jesus' church. The term was old even then so it was probably known in the apostle's time. Catholicism has four main qualities. They are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

One - Jesus designed only one church with one set of doctrines. These doctrines are often examined, but their true meaning always stays in tact. Jesus has one body so He only has one Church.

Holy - Jesus has made the church holy. No, not all the members act holy, but the church itself remains holy.

Catholic - The word Catholic means universal. Jesus told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of everyone. The Catholic religion is found all over the world.

Apostolic - Catholicism is apostolic because Jesus appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church. Successors were the future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops. Since the first century, there has been an unbroken chain of bishops that pass down the traditions and Scriptures

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Unshackled]

Wll, well,well Robyn. It seems that no matter how much you believe that you are a child of the most high God you are just not good enough unless you choose to be a ROMAN catholic. Pity Jesus was a Jew or he might have been good enough to know the truth too.

[ICTHUS]

Wll, well,well Robyn. It seems that no matter how much you believe that you are a child of the most high God you are just not good enough unless you choose to be a ROMAN catholic. Pity Jesus was a Jew or he might have been good enough to know the truth too.

What was the point in THAT???

[Joolye]

So there you go Robyn, you unlearned girl!!!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!

Oh boy!

[Robyn]

I think I can empathise with Luther! GO LUTHER!

Obviously the bible is a whole lie and I've been led astray by God :rolleyes:

Edited September 15, 2003 by Robyn

[Joolye]

I'm confused!

[Paladin D]

Wll, well,well Robyn. It seems that no matter how much you believe that you are a child of the most high God you are just not good enough unless you choose to be a ROMAN catholic. Pity Jesus was a Jew or he might have been good enough to know the truth too.

A witty sarcastic remark in a rather important discussion...how crude.

[Jake Huether]

Wll, well,well Robyn. It seems that no matter how much you believe that you are a child of the most high God you are just not good enough unless you choose to be a ROMAN catholic. Pity Jesus was a Jew or he might have been good enough to know the truth too.

Iron never said anything remotely close to what you insinuate was said.

Maybe read the posts instead of interjecting confusing and totatlly disjointed garbage.

Robyn is a child fo the most hight God... No one is denying that. But we ALL need instruction. We all need to learn and grow.

It isn't a matter of being "good enough unless yuou choose to be a ROMAN Catholic.". It is a matter of having the fullness of truth available to you. Many Roman Catholics, though they have the full Truth at their service, refuse to accept it. Many protestants who have partial truth (or in many cases distorted truthes) choose to fully embrace it! It is a good characteristic to embrace truth when you see it, but for your own benefit put your arms around a ROCK. Times will change, and the tide will rise, and the houses build on sand will slide away. But the House built on a ROCK will not be moved.

[Dave]

I think I can empathise with Luther! GO LUTHER!    

Obviously the bible is a whole lie and I've been led astray by God 

Robyn, no one has said the Bible is a lie. NOTHING the Church teaches contradicts scripture in any way, shape, or form. However, without an infallible interpreter of scripture, all kinds of faulty biblical interpretations creep in. What makes you think you know how to interpret scripture correctly? I think I asked you that before, but you never really answered it. Say what you will, but it's NOT because you're guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does NOT guide people to differing conclusions, as He is a God of truth and unity, not confusion. And yet these people who arrive at different conclusions still claim that the Holy Spirit guided them!

I know I'm repeating myself there, but I'll do it again and again until what I say sinks in.

Edited September 15, 2003 by Dave

[ironmonk]

I think I can empathise with Luther! GO LUTHER! 

Obviously the bible is a whole lie and I've been led astray by God 

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John

Do you know what "learned" means?

It means you know the facts about something.

You are unable to answer basic questions about where and how we got the bible.

Therefore, you are unlearned. It's not an insult, it's just saying that you haven't studied it... If someone told me that I was unlearned in brain surgery, it would be a fact because I have not studied it...

You can fix being unlearned easily... study. Get the facts.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary,

ironmonk

Wll, well,well Robyn. It seems that no matter how much you believe that you are a child of the most high God you are just not good enough unless you choose to be a ROMAN catholic. Pity Jesus was a Jew or he might have been good enough to know the truth too.

That is not what the post is saying at all. The Church teaches that if someone thinks they are serving God correctly that they are Catholic by desire... She came onto a debate board... You came here too.... This site is not about falsehoods, but truths... Truths built on facts... Jesus was real, therefore there are facts to the Truth.

Jesus was a Jew, but He became a Catholic when He built the Church and was the First Catholic... as He is the Head of The Church.

God Bless,

ironmonk

Edited September 15, 2003 by ironmonk

[Jake Huether]

Robyn, no one has said the Bible is a lie. NOTHING the Church teaches contradicts scripture in any way, shape, or form. However, without an infallible interpreter of scripture, all kinds of faulty biblical interpretations creep in. What makes you think you know how to interpret scripture correctly? I think I asked you that before, but you never really answered it. Say what you will, but it's NOT because you're guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does NOT guide people to differing conclusions, as He is a God of truth and unity, not confusion. And yet these people who arrive at different conclusions still claim that the Holy Spirit guided them!

I know I'm repeating myself there, but I'll do it again and again until what I say sinks in.

Amen to that!

In San Jose (and I'm sure elsewhere) there is a gay and lesbian "Christian" Church. May seem strange to you and me, who can use Scripture to discredit this. But believe it or not, they have Scripture to SUPPORT their belief. And they claim what you claim, that they are lead by the Spirit.

[Dave]

In San Jose (and I'm sure elsewhere) there is a gay and lesbian "Christian" Church. May seem strange to you and me, who can use Scripture to discredit this. But believe it or not, they have Scripture to SUPPORT their belief. And they claim what you claim, that they are lead by the Spirit.

Yup, I believe there's at least one in Atlanta. And there was even a chaplain for that type of church at the University of South Carolina at Columbia -- where I got my Masters! And ya wanna hear something really sad? The Catholic chaplain there, who isn't known for his orthodoxy, actually spoke of her in glowing terms, talking about how she makes everyone feel welcome and stuff!

[ReformationNow]

The letters in the bible were written to the Fathers of the Churches... To the Priests; The ordained. They were not written to the laymen.

No where in the bible does it say that the Holy Spirit guides us in what the Scriptures mean.

In fact... it says quite the opposite.

Acts 8:27 So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,

28  and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

29 The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."

30  Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

Why did the Ethiopian need someone to instruct him if the Holy Spirit was guiding him?

2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

If the Holy Spirit was guiding all who read scripture, then this verse would be wrong. The Bible is inspired works of God; how can it be wrong?

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

There is only One Faith established by Christ. If the Holy Spirit was guiding us when reading Scriptures, then we all would have the same interpretation. If the Holy Spirit was guiding us, then none of the scripture would be hard to understand. Just because you think you understand something does not mean you do. If it is not what the Church established by Christ teaches, then you do not understand it.

Though you may pray about it and read scripture... you are unlearned in what the truth is about the correct interpretation of the Scirptures. It was not the "assemblies of God" that gave us the New Testament. Who did?

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The Church has the authority. The Church is the Church that has been making disciples for the past 2000 years. The Church is the group that Jesus gave the authority to teach the truth... The authority to give us the New Testament.

Who better to know the Scriptures than the group that actually saw it happen and the group that has been protecting them ever since they were written?

That is not the point... the point is the First and Oldest Church is the One True Church. If you want to find the truth to which Church is the Church that was founded by Christ, you need to find the Church that existed in 33 AD until today, and will be here tomorrow until the end of the world... Just as Jesus promised.

It does not say that in the bible... this is something you made up on your own. The Holy Spirit is in your life, but not the way you think it is. A "self-confessed disciple who knows enough truth" - but you do not know enough truth... You don't even know how we got the New Testament. You don't know which Church was first and built by Christ. The Scirpture alone, is not enough truth - as Scripture points out... It is the Church that is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. The Church was not built on the bible - the bible was built on the Church.

Because you are unlearned. You are a true believer, but you are not in the Church built in 33 AD.

That's a good question - How can you be of One Faith if you believe different things?

If the Holy Spirit was leading you, it would be to truth. Maybe He is leading you to Catholicism; because you are here... Catholicism is the only place that all questions can be answered with truth. The Catholic Church gave us the New Testament because the Catholic Church is the Church built by Christ.

If God is the center of you life... find all the facts you can on Christianity... from the beginning.

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

the "assemblies of God" was a group that left a protestant church... the protestant churches was a group that came out of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has been here on earth since 33 AD. The first bishops of the Catholic Church were the Apostles.

"Perverting the truth" - these men will pervert the truth; not deny it or make it totally different... it will appear that this was truth to the unlearned.

Being without the True Church, then you cannot receive Christ in body and blood as Jesus tells us we must do in John 6. We must eat the flesh and drink the blood if we are to have life within us.

If satan is able to keep people from eating and drinking Jesus, just think how much he has accomplished.

Seek the facts, and you will find the truth.

From www.Britannica.com

Roman Catholicism

Encyclopædia Britannica Article

Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.

http://catholicism.about.com/library/weekl...y/aa011603a.htm

What is the Catholic Church?

Find out what Catholicism really is

Catholicism is the oldest Christian religion in the world. With over one billion people, the Catholic religion remains a strong force despite opposition. Catholicism is over 2,000 years old. Through the years, the religion must be more than a human organization, but a holy one.

Catholicism is the only Christian religion that started during Christ's time. All other Christian religions stemmed from it. The name "the catholic church" first started in the year 107 when Ignatius of Antioch used the title to describe Jesus' church. The term was old even then so it was probably known in the apostle's time. Catholicism has four main qualities. They are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

One - Jesus designed only one church with one set of doctrines. These doctrines are often examined, but their true meaning always stays in tact. Jesus has one body so He only has one Church.

Holy - Jesus has made the church holy. No, not all the members act holy, but the church itself remains holy.

Catholic - The word Catholic means universal. Jesus told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of everyone. The Catholic religion is found all over the world.

Apostolic - Catholicism is apostolic because Jesus appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church. Successors were the future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops. Since the first century, there has been an unbroken chain of bishops that pass down the traditions and Scriptures

God Bless,

ironmonk

Your example of the Ethiopian is non-applicable. He was unsaved at the time.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpetation(origination). For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The point of these verses is to show that the revelation from scriptures did not originate from man. The best word to be used where 'interpetation' is would be 'origination.' After that, it tells us: "For the prophecy came NOT in old time BY the will of man..." This has nothing to do with a person interpereting scripture, but rather from where scripture originates.

Who gave us scriptures? I think all the authors were Jewish.

Matthew 18:15-18 has to do with Church discipline upon a brother who has wronged another.

How do you know it's the Catholic Church that is the Church founded by Christ? After all, there have always been other Christian Churches around.

[Dave]

Your example of the Ethiopian is non-applicable. He was unsaved at the time.

So then once a person is "saved" they have all this knowledge of the Bible and what it means? Why are there so many "born again" Christians with all these different Bible interpretations?

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpetation(origination). For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The point of these verses is to show that the revelation from scriptures did not originate from man. The best word to be used where 'interpetation' is would be 'origination.' After that, it tells us: "For the prophecy came NOT in old time BY the will of man..." This has nothing to do with a person interpereting scripture, but rather from where scripture originates.

No, what it's saying is that since scripture originated from God, man cannot interpret scripture on his own. He has to have an infallible interpreter, namely, the Church, to help him out.

Who gave us scriptures? I think all the authors were Jewish.

We're not talking about the authors of individual books of the Bible. We're talking about the ENTIRE Bible. The Church gave us the Bible in the sense that it compiled these books under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and declared them inspired.

Matthew 18:15-18 has to do with Church discipline upon a brother who has wronged another.

So what? It doesn't say go to the Bible; it says go to the Church, which, after all is the pillar and foundation of truth, according to St. Paul.

How do you know it's the Catholic Church that is the Church founded by Christ? After all, there have always been other Christian Churches around.

No, there haven't. Until the great schism in which the Eastern Orthodox Church split from the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church.