Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - The Truth

[StColette]

The quote that Theoketos gave can be found at

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/FR91302.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/FR91302.HTM[/url]

under the part called II. An Orthodox Understanding of Transcendentality/Doctrine

[phatcatholic]

that's why she's the queen

Colette ------> :queen:

[StColette]

lol phat

[Guest JeffCR07]

hahaha, thanks colette!

[StColette]

no problem Jeff

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Hey, anyone know where I can get "The Retractions" by St. Augustine and "Against Iconoclasts" by John of Damascus online? I wish I could get the Church Fathers CD-ROM but I don't have the cash.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 24 2004, 04:23 PM'] Hey, anyone know where I can get "The Retractions" by St. Augustine and "Against Iconoclasts" by John of Damascus online? I wish I could get the Church Fathers CD-ROM but I don't have the cash. [/quote]
dude,

i'm still looking for these two works. in the meantime, here's some extracts i found from Augustine's "Retractions"

[url="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-05/npnf1-05-09.htm"][b]from [i]Retractions[/i], Book II, Chapter 23[/b][/url]:[quote]On the Follwing Treatise,

"De Peccatorum Meritis Et Remissione."

------------

A Neccessity arose which compelled me to write against the new heresy of Pelagius. Our previous opposition to it was confined to sermons and conversations, as occasions suggested, and according to our respective abilities and duties; but it had not yet assumed the shape of a controversy in writing. Certain questions were then submitted to me [by our brethern] at Carthage, to which I was to send them back answers in writing; I accordingly wrote first of all three books, under the title "On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins," in which I mainly discussed the baptism of infants because of original sin, and the grace of God by which we are justified, that is, made righteous; but [I remarked] no man in this life can so keep the commandments which prescribe holiness of life, as to be beyond the necessity of using this prayer for his sins: "Forgive us our trespasses"1 It is in direct opposition to these principles that they have devised their new heresy. Now throughout these three books I thought it right not to mention any of their names, hoping and desiring that by such reserve they might the more readily be set right; nay more, in the third book (which is really a letter, but reckoned amongst the books, because I wished to connect it with the two previous ones) I actually quoted Pelagius' name with considerable commendation, because his conduct and life were made a good deal of by many persons; and those statements of his which I refuted, he had himself adduced in his writings, not indeed in his own name, but had quoted them as the words of other persons. However, when he was afterwards confirmed in heresy, he defended them as the words of other persons. However, when he was afterwards confirmed in heresy, he defended them with most persistent animosity. Coelestius, indeed, a disciple of his, had already been excommunicated for similar opinions at Carthage, in a council of bishops, at which I was not present. In a certain passage of my second book I used these words: "Upon some there will be bestowed this blessing at the last day, that they shall not perceived the actual suffering of death in the suddenness of the change which shall happen to them;"2 -reserving the passage for a more careful consideration of the subject; for they will either die, or else by a most rapid trasition from this life to death, and then from death to eternal life, as in the twinkling of an eye, they will not undergo the feeling of mortality. This work ofmine begins with this sentence: "However absorbing and intese the anxieties and annoyances."[/quote]

[url="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-05/npnf1-05-15.htm"][b]from [i]Retractions[/i], Book II, Chapter 42[/b][/url]:[quote]On the Following Treatis,

"De Natura Et Gratia."

------------

"At that time also there came into may hands a certain book of Pelagius', in which he defends, with all the argumentative skill he could muster, the nature of man, in opposition to the grace of God whereby the unrighteous is justified and we become Christians. The treatise which contains my reply to him, and in which I defend grace, not indeed as in opposition to nature, but as that which liberates and controls nature, I have entitled On Nature and Grace. In this work sundry short passages, which were quoted by Pelagius as the words of the Roman bishop and martyr, Xystus, were vindicated by myself1 as if they really were the words of this Sixtus. For this I thought them at the time; but I afterwards discovered, that Sextus the heathen philosopher, and not Xystus the Christian bishop, was their author. This treatise of mine begins with the words; `The book which you sent me.'" [/quote]

[url="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-05/npnf1-05-18.htm"][b]from [i]Retractions[/i], Book II, Chapter 45[/b][/url]:[quote]On the Following Treatise,

"De Gestis Pelagii."

"About the same time, in the East (that is to say, in Palestinian Syria), Pelagius was summoned by certain catholic bethren245 before a tribunal of bishops, and was heard on his trial by fourteen prelates, in the abscnce of his accusers, who were unable to be present on the day of the synod. On his condemning the very dogmas which were read from the indictment against him, as assailing the grace of Christ, they pronounced him to be a catholic. But when the Acts of this synod found their way into our hands, gaining ground that, because he had been in a manner acquitted, his opinion also were approved by the bishops; or that the accused could by any chance have escaped condemnation at their hands, unless he had condemned the opinions charged against him. This treatise of mine begins with these words: `After there came into my hands.'"[/quote]

[url="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-05/npnf1-05-23.htm"][b]from [i]Retractions[/i], Book II, Chapter 53[/b][/url]:[quote]On the Folowing Treatise,

"De Nuptiis Et Consupiscentia."

--------

"I Addressed two books to the Illustrious Count Valerius, upon hearing that the Pelagians had brought sundry vague charges upon us-how, for instance, we condemned marriage by maintaining Original Sin. These books are entitled, On Marriage and Concupiscence. We maintain that marriage is good; and that is must not be suppposed that the concupisence of the flesh, or "the law in our members which wars against the law of mind,"122 is a fault of marriage. Conjugal chastity makes a good use of the evil of concupiscence in the procreation of children. My first treatise contained two books. The first of them found its way into the hands of Julianus the Pelagian, who wrote four books in opposition to it. Out of these, somebody extracated sundry passages, and sent them to Count Valerius; he handed them to us, and after I had received them I worte a second book in answer to these extracts. The first book of this work of mine opens with these words; "Our new heretics, most beloved son Valerius," while the second begins thus: "Amid the cares of our duty as a soldier."[/quote]

[url="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-05/npnf1-05-28.htm"][b]from [i]Retractions[/i], Book II, Chapter 56[/b][/url]:[quote]On the Following Treatise

De Anima Et Ejus Origine

--------

"At that time one Vicentius discovered in the possesion of a certain presbyter called Peter, in Mauritania Caesarinesis, a little work of mine, in a particular passage of which, touching the origin of souls in individual men, I had confessed that I knew not wheter they are propagated from the primeval soul of the first man, and from that by parental descent, or whether they are severally assigned to each person without propogation, as the first was to Adam; but that I was, at the same time, quite sure that the soul was not body, but spirit. In opposition to these opinions of mine, he addressed to this Peter two books, which were sent to me from Caesarea by the monk Renatus. Having read these books, I replied in four others,-one addressed to the monk Renatus, another to the presbyter Peter, and two more to Victor himself. That to Peter, however, thought it has all the lengthiness of a book, is yet only a letter, which I did not like to be kept separate from the other three works. In all of them ,while discussing many points which were unavoidable, I defended my hesitancy on the point of the origin of the souls which are given to individual men; and I pointed out this man's many errors and presumptuous pravity. At the same time, I treated the young man as gently as I could,-not as one who ought to be denounced all out of hand, but as one who ought to be still instructed; and I accepted the account of his conduct which he wrote back to me. In this work of mine, the books addressed to Renatus begins with these words: "Your sincerity towards us;" while that which was written to Peter begins thus; "To his Lordship, my dearly beloved brother and co-presbyter Peter." Of the last two books, which are addressed to Vincentius Victor, the former one thus opens; "As to that which I have thought it my duty to write to you."[/quote]


this was all that ccel.org had from the Retractions, which tell me that this is all we're likely to find. likewise, they didn't have anything from "Against Iconoclasts." i'll keep looking tho.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Thank you. The reason I asked was because the article you gave me had two good quotes from those works, and I don't like to take them for face value in articles. I usually go directly to the source and copy them from that, however New Advent, my main source, didn't have either of these works. I was forced to take the Retractions quote in my article at face value, but would like to verify it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Sorry to bump, but "Against Feeneyism" is now available at my new website:
[url="http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude/"]http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude/[/url]

Direct link:
[url="http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude...tfeeneyism.html[/url]

I will continue to update it on both servers until it becomes impractical to do so.

[phatcatholic]

cool, np, awesome personal website

[drewmeister2]

The Dude,

That article is great! You have done a good job of writing and compiling other people's ideas in the article. God bless!

[HartfordWhalers]

You have written a very long article to try to argue a point that a Catholic only needs a few words to disprove: "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside of which NO ONE AT ALL is saved." Lateran Council IV

Also of note: 64. From what We have thus far written and explained, Venerable Brethren, it is clear, We think, how grievously they err who arbitrarily claim that the Church is something hidden and invisible, as they also do who look upon her as a mere human institution possessing a certain disciplinary code and external ritual, but lacking power to communicate supernatural life.[120] On the contrary, as Christ, Head and Exemplar of the Church "is not complete, if only His visible human nature is considered…, or if only His divine, invisible nature…, but He is one through the union of both and one in both … so is it with His Mystical Body"[121] since the Word of God took unto Himself a human nature liable to sufferings, so that He might consecrate in His blood the visible Society founded by Him and "lead man back to things invisible under a visible rule."[122]

Footnote: 122. St. Thos., De Veritate, q. 29, a. 4, ad 9.

From Pope Pius XII: MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

The visible Church and the invisible Church are one and the same thing, according to him...

Edited September 12, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I never said people were saved outside the Church. I said non-physical members of the Church could be saved inside of Her.

[Guest AloysiusGhost]

if you disagree with the artical, HartfordWhalers, join my Phish Outreach Program to discuss it.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='thedude' date='Sep 12 2004, 11:42 AM'] I never said people were saved outside the Church. I said non-physical members of the Church could be saved inside of Her. [/quote]
OK, then address Pius XII Mystical Body of Christ, please