Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - The Truth

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I wrote this document for my brother (who isn't a Feeneyite, but a person who thought Vatican II changed the position of EENS), and have been adding stuff to it whenever I see anything relevant. I think it is pretty well done but I want PM's input. Anyway, here is my thesis against Feeneyism in Word format, and if you have anything to add or comment on, please post your thoughts here. I hope to revise it into a final version that Phatmass' Church Militant can refer to for help.

[StColette]

I think you did an awesome job dude nothing to add from me you covered it all very well

[MorphRC]

Fr. Feeney wasnt excommunicated for his teachings, but for disobeying the bishops and their orders. Also he was accepted back into the Church on his death bed.

[Guest JeffCR07]

thedude, as you and I have been on the same side of this argument many times before, I hope you know just how well done (and much needed) this is, and I appreciate your spending the time to do it. That having been siad, I think it wouldnt hurt to add in another section.

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As you and I both know, many of the radtrads think that, because it is not explicitly defined as dogma, there is no need to believe it, and it is perfectly acceptable to question it, both publicly and privately. That being considered, I think it would be great if you had a final section refuting this idea, particularly with regards to the Code of Canon Law and the teachings of Vatican II:

[quote]Can. 212 §1 Christ's faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound to show Christian obedience to what the sacred Pastors, who represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith and prescribe as rulers of the Church.[/quote]

[quote]Lumen Gentium, Article 25: Bishops who teach in communion with the Roman Pontiff are to be revered by all as witnesses of divine and Catholic truth; the faithful, for their part, are obliged to submit to their bishops' decision, made in the name of Christ, in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind. This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and sincere assent be given to decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention, which is made known principally either by the character of the documents in question, or by the frequency with which a certain doctrine is proposed, or by the manner in which the doctrine is formulated[/quote]

It should be pointed out that the teachings on Baptism by Blood and Desire, which you have clearly illustrated as being taught by the Pope and his bishops in the Catechism (and the Magisterium across time), [i]regardless of whether they are taught infallibly or not[/i], are not issues open to debate, but are to be given "sincere assent" and "loyal submission of the will and the intellect."

Also, the common comparison to the idea of limbo is an illegitimate one, as limbo is an idea that is permissible for a member of the laity to doubt or question, as it is not, nor has ever been taught in an official manner, but rather, has merely been posited (sometimes widely) as a possibility, while Baptism of Blood and Desire has truly been taught in an official manner by the Magisterium.

Finally, it should be noted that any argument by a Feenyite that the above quotes can be discounted, as a result of the sources not being officially recognised infallible decrees is a circular argument, because it results in the following statement. "These teachings say that I need to submit even if it isn't infallible, but these teachings aren't infallible, so I don't need to submit."

This kind of circularity is much the same as that of Protestants who argue in defense of [i]sola scriptura[/i], as it entirely ignores the underlying authority of the source, and elevates the individual member of the laity to a position in which he or she is "on par" with the Magisterium, which is not only un-catholic, but seriously prideful and sinful.

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You did a great job, I hope you dont find my comments too overbearing or intrusive.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Thank you, Jeff. I'm revising it right now and I hope to get a newer version out by end of the week. It will be much revised and it addresses the point that Morph borught up. I will hopefully be able to get all the quotes of the Fathers into one translation from New Advent.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I've tried to limit commentary in the document to a minimum. The only commentary I really make is at the end:
[quote]In a nutshell, Jesus died for all (CCC 1260), so that our sins may be forgiven and we could enter heaven, because nothing impure can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27).  The Church believes He instituted the Sacraments to be given (or desired, as is the case with Catechumens who die before physical baptism) through the Church for the salvation of man.  The Church is God’s plan for salvation.  Those who, by no fault of their own, do not know that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ are not guilty for not having partaken in the Sacraments.  Those people can attain salvation by living according to the natural law, written on the hearts of all men (Rom. 2:14).  God knows, because of His omniscience, what ignorant person would cooperate with His will if he was to be evangelized by the Catholic Church.  He knows which people would desire baptism if they knew it were necessary.  Even if a person is saved, but wasn’t a physical member of the Church (a Protestant or such), their salvation is still accomplished through the Church.[/quote]
To make it more credible, I would love if somebody would critique this or add to it or add references to it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I've noticed that the last part of Justin Martyr's quotes cannot be found in the New Advent version of the Church Fathers.

[Dave]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 16 2004, 01:21 AM'] Fr. Feeney wasnt excommunicated for his teachings, but for disobeying the bishops and their orders. Also he was accepted back into the Church on his death bed. [/quote]
The bishops were ordering him not to teach heresy!

Also, he never recanted his views on his death bed. He was "reconciled" to the Church on his death bed, true, but the priest or whoever it was who reconciled him didn't have that kind of authority to lift excommunications. So really, he was never truly reconciled to the Church.

[p0lar_bear]

He disobeyed an order to transfer to another position, then he disobeyed orders to stop teaching from the St. Benedict Center, then he disobeyed orders to appear in Rome. While it was all related to what he was teaching, his actual excommunication was simply for disobedience.

The Church has never contradicted the claims that Fr. Feeney was reconciled and most believe this.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The excommunication was for disciplinary reasons and not teachings, so when it was lifted, there was no change in the Church's stance on his teachings.

I've done some major work on the document. Anymore cited quotes from the Fathers would be quite helpful though.

[phatcatholic]

you state at the end of your document:

[quote]The Church teaches that all men are, although some imperfectly, somehow tied to the Catholic Church whether they know it or not.[/quote]

you should provide proof here that reinforces that statement. the first thing that comes to my mind are the following paragraphs from the CCC:[list]
[*][b]818[/b] "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

[b]819[/b] "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

. . . .

[b]Who Belongs to the Catholic Church?[/b]

[b]836[/b] "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

[b]837[/b] "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

[b]838[/b] "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

[b]The Church and non-Christians[/b]

[b]839[/b] "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

[i]The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People[/i]. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

[b]840[/b] And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

[b]841[/b] [i]The Church's relationship with the Muslims[/i]. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

[b]842[/b] [i]The Church's bond with non-Christian religions[/i] is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:[list]
[*]All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
[/list]
[b]843[/b] The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

[b]844[/b] In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:[list]
[*]Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
[/list]
[b]845[/b] To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
[/list]
you may also wish to include these paragraphs which directly address your topic:[list]
[*][b]"Outside the Church there is no salvation"[/b]

[b]846[/b] How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:[list]
[*]Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
[/list]
[b]847[/b] This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:[list]
[*]Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
[/list]
[b]848[/b] "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


[b]Footnotes:[/b]
272 UR 3 § 1.
273 LG 8 § 2.
274 UR 3 § 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.
. . . .
320 LG 13.
321 LG 14.
322 LG 15.
323 UR 3.
324 Paul VI, Discourse, December 14, 1975; cf. UR 13-18.
325 LG 16.
326 Cf. NA 4.
327 Roman Missal, Good Friday 13:General Intercessions,VI.
328 Rom 9:4-5.
329 Rom 11:29.
330 LG 16; cf. NA 3.
331 NA 1.
332 LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.
333 LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.
334 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9:PL 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118:PL 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.
335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536.
336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.
[/list]
i hope this helps. pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 16, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Guest JeffCR07]

this is all good stuff guys, thanks especially to phatcatholic, who has muchos grande sources cited in footnote form - good style

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I have incorporated everything brought up in this thread and reorganized to document, as well as significant revisions to the Church Fathers. If possible, I'de like more ECF quotes, so if you have any, please post them here.

The document is almost finished. Its too big to post here right now as it is around 70kb. I should be done tommorow.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

After major revisions and additions, its done! It was too large to attach to this post, so I uploaded it online as an "html" document (should also make it easier to read). Tell me what you think!
[url="http://www.wcnet.org/~mjmarsh/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.wcnet.org/~mjmarsh/againstfeeneyism.html[/url]

[Guest JeffCR07]

that is very, very well done. I'm really impressed. Thanks a ton!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff