Deutercanoncals (sp?)

[Crusader_4]

Hey pham was wondering if you could help me out with this. Often when the Detercanoncials (DC) are mentioned the objection of the verses Tobit 6:1-8 come up in regards to witchcraft. I was wondering with the Catholic interperation of this verse what its meaning was.

[i]Tobit 6:1 And as they went on their journey, they came in the evening to the river Tigris, and they lodged there.
Tobit 6:2 And when the young man went down to wash himself, a fish leaped out of the river, and would have devoured him.
Tobit 6:3 Then the angel said unto him, Take the fish. And the young man laid hold of the fish, and drew it to land.
Tobit 6:4 To whom the angel said, Open the fish, and take the heart and the liver and the gall, and put them up safely.
Tobit 6:5 So the young man did as the angel commanded him; and when they had roasted the fish, they did eat it: then they both went on their way, till they drew near to Ecbatane.
Tobit 6:6 Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, to what use is the heart and the liver and the gal of the fish?
Tobit 6:7 And he said unto him, Touching the heart and the liver, if a devil or an evil spirit trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the party shall be no more vexed.
Tobit 6:8 As for the gall, it is good to anoint a man that hath whiteness in his eyes, and he shall be healed.[/i]

-William

[phatcatholic]

william,

here is what i have been able to find so far:

[url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/tobit/tobit6.htm#foot1"]NAB Commentary[/url]:[list]
[*][5] Its gall . . . medicines: belief in the healing power of these organs was common among even the physicians of antiquity.
[/list][url="http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/bible/tobias.cfm"]Douay-Rheims Bible Commentary[/url]:[list]
[*][8] Its heart, etc. The liver (ver. 19). . .God was pleased to give these things a virtue against those proud spirits, to make them, who affected to be like the Most High, subject to such mean corporeal creatures as instruments of his power.
[/list]
i'm not done looking. hopefully more later.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

One of the main problems here that I see is the translation of this passage from the Bible, KJV has never been a fave of mine because it tends to leave out keywords. Keywords left out especially in regards to the "medicinal" use of the heart and liver.

NAB
1 Then she stopped weeping.

2 When the boy left home, accompanied by the angel, the dog followed Tobiah out of the house and went with them. The travelers walked till nightfall, and made camp beside the Tigris River.

3 Now when the boy went down to wash his feet in the river, a large fish suddenly leaped out of the water and tried to swallow his foot. He shouted in alarm.

4 But the angel said to him, "Take hold of the fish and don't let it get away!" The boy seized the fish and hauled it up on the shore.

5 The angel then told him: "Cut the fish open and take out its gall, heart, and liver, and keep them with you; but throw away the entrails. Its gall, heart, and liver make useful medicines."

6 After the lad had cut the fish open, he put aside the gall, heart, and liver. Then he broiled and ate part of the fish; the rest he salted and kept for the journey.

7 Afterward they traveled on together till they were near Media. The boy asked the angel this question: "Brother Azariah, what medicinal value is there in the fish's heart, liver, and gall?"

8 He answered: "As regards the fish's heart and liver, if you burn them so that the smoke surrounds a man or a woman who is afflicted by a demon or evil spirit, the affliction will leave him completely, and no demons will ever return to him again.

I'm still looking for stuff as well...

God Bless,
Jennie

[phatcatholic]

william,

i think that a rebuttal to the claim of "witchcraft" in Tobit should center around our understanding of sacramentals, of material things effecting the supernatural. this is essentially what is occuring here. God effects through the heart and liver of a fish the exorcism of the demon that plagued Raguel, and through the gall of that fish the restoration of Tobit's sight. how is this witchcraft? Tobias does not give these things power via any spell or act of his own power. he does not call upon pagan gods or spirits to embue them w/ power. actually, he doesn't call on anything at all. he simply follows the commands of Raphael, one of God's most trusted messengers.

furthermore, the material effecting the supernatural is an entirely biblical concept, as illustrated by the following verses:

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ's cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

Mk 8:22-25; John 9:5-7 - Jesus uses saliva mixed with dirt to restore a man's sight
[b]--note:[/b] Jesus can use mud but God can't use the gall of a fish?

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul's handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

James 5:14 - oil is used in the process of healing

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha's bones bring a man back to life. The saints' bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.


so, we find that Tobit 6:1-8 is merely another example of a biblical concept. Non-Catholics are notorious for their rejection of the will of God to work through our material world, which makes it no surprise to me that the contention of "witchcraft" would be made against this book.

for more on sacramentalism, go [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ86.HTM"][b]here[/b][/url]

i hope this helps. pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

Oooh phatcatholic that's an awesome way to refute their interpretation of that passage !!

[Crusader_4]

Great thankyou very much also what about the famous one in regards to maccabees where the author "claims" the book wasnt inspired? Thanks soo much Phatcatholic.

[StColette]

umm Crusader do you have the verses where the author supposedly says this ?

[Crusader_4]

Yes will get them hold on sorry also call me William...more phamily like haha lol.

[StColette]

lol Okay William I'll wait patiently and btw you can call me Jennie

[Crusader_4]

Here is the scripture that is often "claimed" that the Author of II Macabees himself says it is not inspired:

Chapter 15

37
Since Nicanor's doings ended in this way, with the city remaining in possession of the Hebrews from that time on, I will bring my own story to an end here too.
38
If it is well written and to the point, that is what I wanted; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that is the best I could do.
39
Just as it is harmful to drink wine alone or water alone, whereas mixing wine with water makes a more pleasant drink that increases delight, so a skillfully composed story delights the ears of those who read the work. Let this, then, be the end.

[MorphRC]

I never knew this. ty

[StColette]

umm William this may take me a while lol

[MorphRC]

[font="Times"][color=blue][b]2 Maccabees 15:37-39 - NJBC 2nd Ed. 2000. *Impartiur*[/b][/color][/font]

[b][i]New Jerome Biblical Commentary[/i], 2nd Edition, Published 1990, Reprint: 1995,1996 & 2000. [i]Authors & Editors: Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J. & Roland E. Murphy, O'CARM[/i]. Nihil Obstat & Impartiur.[/b]

[b]88[/b]

[b]28-37.[/b]

Instead of having a "trophy" or monument to his enemy's defeat (15:6), Nicanor becomes one (15:35). [b]29.[/b] [i]language:[/i] Hebrew. [b]36.[/b] [i]Adar:[/i] This month was the Selecid Xanthicus (11:30,33,38), [i]Syrian language:[/i] Aramaic. [i]Mordecai's day:[/i] See. Esth 3:7; 9:20-23; 10:3.[b][1][2][/b]

->

[b]89[/b]

[b](M) Epilogue of the Epitomist (15:37b-39)[/b]

[i]the city:[/i] Jerusalem. The epitomist has attempted to please his readers (2:25). Picking up the imagery of the tempered wine at a banquet (see 2:27), he says that he has mixed the recitation of history with a pleasing style of narration. He commends his best efforts to his readers.[b][1][3][/b]

[b]----------------------------------------------------------[/b]

[b][1][/b] New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 2nd Edition, Published 1990, Reprint: 1995,1996 & 2000. Authors & Editors: Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J. & Roland E. Murphy, O'CARM. Nihil Obstat & Impartiur
[b][2][/b] NJBC, 2nd Ed. Pub. 1990, Repr: 1995,1996 & 2000. - Page 446, 2 Maccabees (12:3-15:39), [26:83-89], 88.
[b][2][/b] NJBC, 2nd Ed. Pub. 1990, Repr: 1995,1996 & 2000. - Page 446, 2 Maccabees (12:3-15:39), [26:83-89], 89.

[b]----------------------------------------------------------[/b]

Jennie

[StColette]

lol ty Paul

[Crusader_4]

i am confused TY?