Church Fathers

[daugher-of-Mary]

A quick question...I am debating with an evangelical who says reading the Early Church Fathers is no good since their writings were not included in the Canon of Scripture and should be regarded as unsound doctrine. How do I answer?

[MorphRC]

Tell them, that if it wasnt for the Church Fathers, he'd have no Scripture to use. Ill get some quotes

[Sanvean]

It would seem to me that if we were to reject anything not included in the Canon of Scripture as unsound doctrine, then we would have to disregard any writing of a spiritual matter outside of direct quotations from the Bible.

Certainly, the writings of the Early Church Fathers aren't in the same category as Sacred Scripture, but that does not mean that they are unsound doctrine unless they contain teachings that contradict Sacred Scripture.

In other words: If the evangelical you are debating with attends church, I presume she attends a church of some sort? If so, then every week, she would most likely be listening to a sermon. Clearly, her pastor's sermons are not included in the Canon of Scripture(unless, of course, every week those sermons are simply direct quotations from Scripture).Thus, by the above logic, she should simply reject the teachings in those sermon's as unsound doctrine.

Essentially, by that reason, we would need to reject every single teaching of a religious nature as unsound doctrine that is not part of the Canon of Scripture, irregardless of it's relationship to Sacred Scripture(i.e., whether or not it contradicts Scripture, or the spirit of Scripture). That's certainly neither a practical or reasonable proposition.

I'm not sure how clear that was. It's late, and it's been a long week, so I'm a little muddled.

-Veronica

[daugher-of-Mary]

God bless you, Morph! Quotes would be greatly appreciated.

[MorphRC]

[color=blue][font="Times"][b]Secular Source on the Church Fathers[/b][/color][/font]

[b]Fathers of the Church, name given by the Christian Church to the writers who established Christian doctrine before the 8th century.[/b] [b]The writings of the Fathers, or patristic literature, synthesized Christian doctrine as found in the Bible, especially the Gospels, the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, ecclesiastical dictums, and decisions of Church councils.[/b] They provided a standardized body of Christian teaching for transmission to the peoples of the Roman Empire. The so-called Doctors of the Church consist of four Western Fathers, including SS Ambrose, Augustine of Hippo, Pope Gregory I, and Jerome, and four Eastern Fathers, including SS Athanasius, Basil, John Chrysostom, and Gregory of Nazianzus. The earlier Eastern Fathers, including Clement of Alexandria, St Justin Martyr, and Origen, were strongly influenced by Greek philosophy. The Western Fathers, however, including Tertullian and SS Gregory I and Jerome, generally avoided the synthesis of pagan and Christian thought.

The Church established four qualifications for bestowing the honorary title of Father of the Church on an early writer. In addition to belonging to the early period of the Church, a Father of the Church must have led a holy life. His writings must be generally free from doctrinal error and must contain an outstanding defence or explanation of Christian doctrine. Finally, his writings must have received the approval of the Church.

[b]Microsoft Encarta 2004 Standard - CD-ROM
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.[/b]

[daugher-of-Mary]

Thanks, Veronica. That makes a lot of sense...the only thing is, he is questioning the Early Church Fathers in regards to the Immaculate Conception which he says is not scriptural (despite many efforts to show otherwise).

[MorphRC]

[font="Times"][color=blue][b]Secular Source on the Church Fathers[/b][/color][/font]

[i]Apostolic Fathers[/i], Christian term applied to certain disciples and successors of the 12 apostles. In a more restricted sense, the term is applied to a group of Greek-language writers who were among the martyrs and major figures of the 1st and 2nd centuries in the Christian Church. [b]Although not considered worthy of inclusion in the Bible, their writings may be ranked as a continuation of the writings of the apostles themselves and are considered a valuable source of early Church history. [/b]Generally accepted as apostolic fathers are [b]Clement I of Rome, St Ignatius of Antioch, and St Polycarp.[/b] Opinion is divided on whether St Barnabas (lived about ad 130) and Hermas are apostolic fathers. Among the writings also associated with the apostolic fathers is the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, or Didache; opinion also differs on the authorship of this work.

[b]Microsoft Encarta 2004 Standard - CD-ROM
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.[/b]

Edited August 15, 2004 by MorphRC

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Church Fathers were the first Christians. Many were students of the Apostles. Why trust a reformer of the 1500s on theology when you can ask those who actually encountered Jesus and His disciples?

Most Protestants do read them to an extent, but have to come up with mumbo jumbo to disbelieve their teachings. The only reason some don't read them is they are afraid that Catholicism is the truth.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='daugher-of-Mary' date='Aug 15 2004, 12:01 AM'] A quick question...I am debating with an evangelical who says reading the Early Church Fathers is no good since their writings were not included in the Canon of Scripture and should be regarded as unsound doctrine.  How do I answer? [/quote]
Might want to remind him that the NT canon is the result of Athansius, an early Church Father,

follow the links
[url="http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2001/01/daily-01-07-2001.shtml"]http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2001/0...1-07-2001.shtml[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806.htm[/url]

FROM LETTER XXXIX. (For 367.)



Of the particular books and their number, which are accepted by the Church.
From the thirty-ninth Letter of Holy Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, on the
Paschal festival; wherein he defines canonically what are the divine books
which are accepted by the Church.

.... 1. They have(1) fabricated books which they call books of tables(2),
in which they shew stars, to which they give the names of Saints. And therein
of a truth they have inflicted on themselves a double reproach: those who have
written such books, because they have perfected themselves in a lying and
contemptible science; and as to the ignorant and simple, they have led them
astray by evil thoughts concerning the right faith established in all truth
and upright in the presence of God.

.... 2. But(2a) since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of
ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation; and since I fear
lest, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians(3), some few of the simple should be
beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtility of certain men,
and should henceforth read other books--those called apocryphal--led astray by
the similarity of their names with the true books; I beseech you to bear
patiently, if I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you
are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church.

3. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to
commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own
account: 'Forasmuch as some have taken in hand(4),' to reduce into order for
themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely
inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who
from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to
the fathers; it seemed



552



good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having
learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon,
and handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has
fallen into error may condemn those who have led him astray; and that he who
has continued stedfast in purity may again rejoice, having these things
brought to his remembrance.

4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for,
as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters
among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The
first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then
Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges,
then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second
being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book.
And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book.
Again Ezra, the first and second(4a) are similarly one book. After these there
is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of
Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book.
Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and[5] the
epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far
constitutes the Old Testament.

5. Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament.
These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic), seven,
viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude.
In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The
first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the
Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the
Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews;
and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And
besides, the Revelation of John.

6. These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied
with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine
of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these.
For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, 'Ye do
err, not knowing the Scriptures.' And He reproved the Jews, saying, 'Search
the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of Me(6).'

7. But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there
are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed
by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for
instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of
Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the
Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are
included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any
place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics,
who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and
assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may
find occasion to lead astray the simple.


God Bless

[MorphRC]

Theologian in Training

I think she needed outside evidence to support the importance of the CF's rather than quotes from them, especially if the person doesnt recognize them.