Help...debating Immaculate Conception

[StColette]

I'll see if I can handle the Mary the New Ark part, it may take me a lil while to right up a tract for it but it's coming

[Laudate_Dominum]

Here is my intitial reaction:

[quote]Not to mention that no matter how many times they refined the gold, it would never be perfect. So it could be very close to perfect but still have things in it. [/quote]
I don't think this person understands the nature of biblical symbolism and typology. Gold is a symbol for purity, the exact level of physical refinement of the gold in question has nothing to do with the fact that gold is a symbol for that which is pure and undefiled.

[quote]So even using your arguement, it doesn't follow that the ark was sinless or that Mary was sinless. [/quote]
Who is saying that the ark is sinless? What the heck? The ark is not a person and does not have free will and so there is no question of sin.

[quote]The ark was still man made. God didn't make the ark, He told them how to do it. So it wasn't perfect. Did man make Mary into what she was? By your arguement that would have to be true. That man was responsible for how righteous she was.[/quote]
This conclusion shows a total lack of understanding of biblical typology and symbolism. His logic would do away with all typology really. David was a figure of Christ, but he was only a man and commited great sins, therefore Christ was only a man and commited great sins. This is basically the way this person is arguing.


[quote]Well, I don't understand why the "woman" in Revelations has to be Eve?
As for Gen. 3:15, it cannot be Mary. This is very easily shown with the very next verse. Context is absolutely vital in understanding the Bible.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Now, you have claimed that Mary did not experience pain in child birth. Yet here, we see that the very same woman that He is talking about in 3:15 ("the woman") is the one He tells will have painful childbirth.
So I do not believe that this could be Mary or that it represents Mary. The seed represents the descendents of Eve and has nothing to do with Mary except that she should be the descendent of Eve who bears the seed that is to bruise the serpent's head.
Is this explanation sufficient enough for you to see that the woman cannot be Mary? That it is in fact Eve and all women after her? Just as Adam is the one mentioned in the following chapters. You see, God did not refer to Eve as Eve in that verse because Eve had not been named yet. Adam named her even in verse 20.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
This seems like it should be more than enough to convince you. I hope it is so.[/quote]
Same problem here, shows a total cluelessness regarding biblical prophecy and typology. This type of "exegesis" could be used on, I would say, any text which prefigures of prophecies Jesus Christ. For example the virgin who would bear a son and call him Emmanuel, well, Mary and Joseph didn't name Jesus Emmanual therefore that prophecy doesn't relate to Christ. I think this person would benefit from a course or a good book on Biblical interpretation.

[goldenchild17]

Thanks. Take all the time you need.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 17 2004, 05:15 PM'] I'll see if I can handle the Mary the New Ark part, it may take me a lil while to right up a tract for it but it's coming [/quote]
I suspect phatcatholic has some pretty sweet articles on it in the reference section.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Aug 16 2004, 08:01 PM'] Well, I don't understand why the "woman" in Revelations has to be Eve? [/quote]
i don't think anyone is claiming that the woman in revelations has to be Eve. this woman has been traditionally identified as The Church, Israel, or Mary.

[quote]As for Gen. 3:15, it cannot be Mary. This is very easily shown with the very next verse. Context is absolutely vital in understanding the Bible.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Now, you have claimed that Mary did not experience pain in child birth. Yet here, we see that the very same woman that He is talking about in 3:15 ("the woman") is the one He tells will have painful childbirth.[/quote]
granted, if we use a literal interpretation of these verses, then they indeed refer to Eve. but a symoblic or metaphorical reading reveals that they refer to Mary.

for one, "labor pains" and "travailing" are phrases often used as metaphors to describe one's formation in Christ, as revealed by the following verses:

[b]Isaiah 66:6-9[/b]
[b]6 [/b]"Hark, an uproar from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, rendering recompense to his enemies!
[b]7 [/b]"Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son.
[b]8 [/b]Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons.
[b]9 [/b]Shall I bring to the birth and not cause to bring forth? says the LORD; shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb? says your God.

[b]Gal 4:19 [/b]My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!

[b]Rom 8:22-23[/b]
[b]22 [/b]We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now;
[b]23 [/b]and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

[b]Jer 13:22 [/b]What will you say when they set as head over you those whom you yourself have taught to be friends to you? Will not pangs take hold of you, like those of a woman in travail?

[b]Hosea 13:12-13[/b]
[b]12 [/b]The iniquity of E'phraim is bound up, his sin is kept in store.
[b]13 [/b]The pangs of childbirth come for him, but he is an unwise son; for now he does not present himself at the mouth of the womb.

[b]Micah 4:9-10[/b]
[b]9 [/b]Now why do you cry aloud? Is there no king in you? Has your counselor perished, that pangs have seized you like a woman in travail?
[b]10 [/b]Writhe and groan, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail; for now you shall go forth from the city and dwell in the open country; you shall go to Babylon. There you shall be rescued, there the LORD will redeem you from the hand of your enemies.


we have thus far established that, under a symbolic reading, birth pains signify formation in Christ. how does this relate to the "children" from this verse? well, we find in Rev 12:17 that the woman's offspring are those who follow Christ:

[b]Rev 12:17 [/b]Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

if we extend our metaphorical reading to Revelations as well (notice how Mary is symbolically present at both ends of the Bible), then the children from Gen 3:16 are those for whom Mary takes great pains to bring closer to her Son. she is our spiritual mother, who's pain is united to the sufferings of Christ (Luke 2:34-35). She feels for us as we labor to grow closer to Him. this spiritual motherhood is also seen in John's gospel:

[b]John 19:25-27[/b]
[b]25 [/b]So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
[b]26 [/b]When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[b]27 [/b]Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

John here is representative of the Church at the foot of the Cross, and so in His words to His mother, Jesus initiates a profound relationship between "those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev 12:17) and His blessed mother.

thus, under an informed symbolic interpretation, Gen 3:15-16 can be aptly applied to Mary.

[quote]Is this explanation sufficient enough for you to see that the woman cannot be Mary?[/quote]
nope

i hope that what i have written here is a sufficient defense of the Catholic interpretation of Gen 3:15-16

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 17, 2004 by phatcatholic

[StColette]

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

11 And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold, within and without; and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about:
12 And four golden rings, which thou shalt put at the four corners of the ark: let two rings be on the one side, and two on the other.
13 Thou shalt make bars also of setim wood, and shalt overlay them with gold.
14 And thou shalt put them in through the rings that are in the sides of the ark, that it may be carried on them:
15 And they shall be always in the rings, neither shall they at any time be drawn out of them.
16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee.
17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half.
18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.
20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.
21 In which thou shalt put the testimony that I will give thee.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

2Sm:6:7:
7 And the indignation of the Lord was enkindled against Oza, and he struck him for his rashness: and he died there before the ark of God. (DRV)

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

9 ¶ And when they came to the floor of Chidon, Oza put forth his hand, to hold up the ark: for the ox being wanton had made it lean a little on one side.
10 And the Lord was angry with Oza, and struck him, because he had touched the ark; and he died there before the Lord.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Lk:1:39:
39 ¶ And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda. (DRV)

2Sm:6:2:
2 And David arose and went, with all the people that were with him of the men of Juda to fetch the ark of God, upon which the name of the Lord of Hosts is invoked, who sitteth over it upon the cherubims. (DRV)

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Lk:1:41:
41 And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. (DRV)

2Sm:6:16:
16 And when the ark of the Lord was come into the city of David, Michol the daughter of Saul, looking out through a window, saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord: and she despised him in her heart. (DRV)

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Lk:1:43:
43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (DRV)

2Sm:6:9:
9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, saying: How shall the ark of the Lord come to me? (DRV)

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Lk:1:56:
56 And Mary abode with her about three months. And she returned to her own house. (DRV)

2Sm:6:11:
11 And the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household. (DRV)

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven.

Rv:11:19:
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail. (DRV)

The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this.

However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rv:12:1:
1 ¶ And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (DRV)

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rv:12:17:
17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (DRV)

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Rv:12:2:
2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered. (DRV)

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Is:66:7:

7 Before she was in labour, she brought forth; before her time came to be delivered, she brought forth a man child. (DRV)
Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Gal:4:19:
19 ¶ My little children, of whom I am in labour again, until Christ be formed in you. (DRV)

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Rom:8:22:
22 For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now. (DRV)

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Jer:13:21:
21 What wilt thou say when he shall visit thee? for thou hast taught them against thee, and instructed them against thy own head: shall not sorrows lay hold on thee, as a woman in labour? (DRV)

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Hos 13:12-13
12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up, his sin is hidden.
13 The sorrows of a woman in labour shall come upon him, he is an unwise son: for now he shall not stand in the breach of the children.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Micah 4:9-10
9 Now, why art thou drawn together with grief? Hast thou no king in thee, or is thy counselor perished, because sorrow hath taken thee as a woman in labour.
10 Be in pain and labour, O daughter of Sion, as a woman that bringeth forth: for now shalt thou go out of the city, and shalt dwell in the country, and shalt come even to Babylon, there thou shalt be delivered: there the Lord will redeem thee out of the hand of thy enemies.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

Rev 12:13-16

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man child.
14 And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert, unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth, after the woman, water, as it were a river: that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman: and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
okay those verses were provided by Scripturecatholic.com along with the meaning behind them

Now the person who wrote the refute that Mary could not be the New Ark also said that the laws of God, the commandments, were not placed within the Ark correct ? My Bible makes references to 3 different sections of the Old Testament which speak on the laws being placed within the Ark of the Covenant.

Dt 10:1-5
1 ¶ At that time the Lord said to me: Hew thee two tables of stone like the former, and come up to me into the mount: and thou shalt make an ark of wood,
2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in them, which thou brokest before, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
3 And I made an ark of setim wood. And when I had hewn two tables of stone like the former, I went up into the mount, having them in my hands.
4 And he wrote in the tables, according as he had written before, the ten words, which the Lord spoke to you in the mount from the midst of the fire, when the people were assembled: and he gave them to me.
5 And returning from the mount, I came down, and put the tables into the ark, that I had made, and they are there till this present, as the Lord commanded me.

Dt:31:26:
26 Take this book, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God: that it may be there for a testimony against thee. (DRV)

Before his death, Moses, placed a Book of the Law within the Ark of the Covenant so that these laws would continue on after he was there no longer. These laws were the laws in which God instructed Moses to make his people live by.

1Kgs:8:9:
9 Now in the ark there was nothing else but the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. (DRV)


I'm still looking for some more stuff

God Bless,
jennie

Edited August 17, 2004 by StColette

[StColette]

[quote]e) Ark of the Covenant

In speaking of Mary as the bridge between the Old an the New, we are inevitably led to the theme of Mary as the Ark of the Covenant. From Luke's initial characterization of Mary as the Daughter of Zion we are led to his grand vision of Mary as the Ark of the Covenant, a vision that is continued in both the Gospel of John and the book of Revelation. As noted earlier, Luke's way of introducing Old Testament themes or prophecies is through allusions rather than direct assertions of "prophetic fulfillment." In introducing Mary as the Ark, he draws on Old Testament texts that any Jewish reader would understand and identify with the Ark.

Rene Laurentin draws attention to the similitude between Exodus 40:34,35 and Luke 1:35:

"The divine overshadowing, designated by the characteristic word episkiasei, evoked the cloud which was the sign of Yahweh's presence. This cloud was seen for the first time when the Mosaic worship was established. With its shadow it covered the Ark of the Covenant, while the glory of God—that is, God himself—filled it from within. In her turn Mary is going to be the object of this double manifestation:

a presence from above that signifies transcendence, and a presence of the Lord from within. That is what is implied in the comparison of the two texts:

Exodus 40:34: "The cloud covered the Tent of meeting and the glory of Yahweh filled the tabernacle." Luke 1:35: "The power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God."

The same idea seems to be taken up in the episode of the visitation, a story told in reference to the account of the transfer of the Ark in 2 Sam. 6:1, 14 ... The episode of the Visitation is drawn up in close parallelism with 2 Sam 6:14, the story of the transportation of the Ark of the Covenant, narrated just before the messianic prophecy (7:1-17) to which Luke 1:32-3 alludes. The events, the atmosphere, the terms used to describe them correspond closely: the ascent of the Ark (2 Samuel 6:5) and the ascent of Mary (Luke 1:39), the joyous outcry of the people and Elizabeth's cry of greeting; the exultation of David and of John the Baptist. At times the expressions are in striking correspondence with each other:

2 Samuel 6:9: "However can the Ark of Yahweh (- My Lord) come to me?"
Luke 1:43: "Why should I be honored with a visit from the mother of My Lord?"
2 Samuel 6:11: "The Ark of Yahweh remained for three months in the house.."
Luke 1:56: "Mary remained about three months in the home of Elizabeth."

In short, in the marvelously artful account of the Visitation the image of the Ark of the Covenant is worked into the person of Mary, and here and there in a typological approach it is possible to see that the "Lord" whose mother she is is no other than than the "Lord" who resided in the Ark.

The theme is taken up a final time at the end of the infancy gospel. As Jesus enters the Temple Simeon greets him as 'the glory of Israel, (Luke 2:32). This is a divine title. The glory of Yahweh that had deserted the Temple once it was bereft of the Ark of the Covenant now reenters the Temple as Mary comes there carrying Jesus. Thus it is that Simeon can die happy (Luke 2:26, 29); he now can "see death" since he has "seen the glory of the Lord." The time has been fulfilled. Here Mary, eschatalogical Daughter of Zion and new Ark of the Covenant, accomplishes her mission in a way in bringing to the Temple the one whose place it properly is. This is what Jesus himself will affirm in the very last episode of the infancy gospel, that of his being found in the Temple: 'I must be in my Father's house.' [Luke 2:49]. (23).

Manelli points out the following parallels between the Visitation and the transportation of the Ark of the Covenant from the house of Abinadab to that of Obededom and to Jerusalem (2 Sam 6:1-15):

The two "journeys" take place in Judea; the shouts of jubilation of the people and of Elizabeth; David and John' the Baptist "exult for joy"; the presence of the Ark and that of Mary are blessing for the house; the Ark and Mary remain in the house for three months. (24)

About the Ark symbolism, John McHugh writes:

[Luke 1] Verse 35 asserts that this creative, life-giving Power of the Most High will overshadow Mary. Luke's choice of the word 'overshadow, is of first importance. Several recent writers, Lutheran, Anglican and Roman Catholic, have stressed the significance of this verb in this context: they see in it an indication that the Divine Presence descended on Mary as it had once descended on the Ark of the Covenant. At the very end of the Book of Exodus, when the Tent has at last been completed, the writer adds: 'Then the Cloud enveloped the Tent of Witness, and the Tent was filled with the Glory of the Lord. And Moses could not enter the Tent of Witness, because the Cloud was overshadowing it, and the Tent had been filled with the Glory of the Lord' (Ex 40:34-5). In the Greek Old Testament, words meaning 'to overshadow, are comparatively rare, and they are nearly always found in passages which speak of the presence of God ... In Is 4:2-6 the prophet ... promises that on the Day of Yahweh, the Divine Presence will once again overshadow the purified Daughter of Zion with its glory.

St. Luke, when he wrote the word 'overshadow" must have known what,associations it would evoke in the Jewish mind. No Jew, reading the words 'A Power of the Most High will overshadow thee', could fail to think of the Divine Presence or Shekinah. The meaning of Lk 1:35, therefore, is that the creative Power of God's Holy Spirit is going to descend upon Mary, as the Glory of the Lord had once descended upon the Tent of Witness and filled it with a Divine Presence. (25).

A number of exegetes have commented on the parallels between the Infancy narrative in Luke and the Prologue of the Gospel of John. There is reason to believe that John refers both to the Virgin Birth and to the Ark symbolism:

John 1:13: "Not born of blood or of the desire of the flesh or of the desire of God."
Luke 1:34: "I do not know man."
John 1:13: "But of God."
Luke 1:35: "The power of the Most High will cover you
John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh and pitched his tent among us."
Luke 1:35-46 and 2 Samuel 6 on the theme of the Ark of the Covenant.

In this passage from John there is an allusion to "the tent or tabernacle where God resided since the making of the Covenant (Exodus 40:34-35; cf. 25:8; 26, etc.)." (26)

This symbolism and its relationship to Mary continues in the Book of Revelation. John explicitly brings out this nuance in Revelation 21:3 'Behold the tent of God with men; he will tent with them.' It will be noted that in this text (and apparently in Revelation 11:19 and 12:1, two closely linked verses) the 'tent' is also a 'woman': 'I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, as beautiful as a bride all dressed for her husband, and then I heard a loud voice call out from the throne, 'Behold the tent of God with men ... 1 (21:2-3). 'Then the sanctuary of God in heaven opened, and the Ark of the Covenant could be seen inside it ... Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, adorned with the sun ... She was pregnant.' (11:19-12:1). When the book of Revelation was written there were no chapter divisions and so there should be a continuous flow from 11:19 to 12:1: the revelation of the Ark of the Covenant in God's temple in Heaven is followed immediately by the vision of the woman clothed by the sun because the Ark is identified with her who is none other than Mary.

The identification of the Ark of the Covenant with Mary, so clear to Jewish readers of Luke and John, was grasped by the early Christian community as confirmed by references in ancient liturgies, litanies, hymns such as the Akathistos and the writings of the Fathers (for instance Athanasius). Thus the affirmation of Mary as the Ark of the Covenant directly derived from Scripture became a part of the Apostolic Faith. The Ark lies at the center 'of the Old Covenant and its continuation into the New Covenant in the person of Mary is an invitation to awe-filled meditation on the Marian role in the mystery of salvation.[/quote]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYINSC.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYINSC.htm[/url]

[StColette]

[quote]Mary as Ark of the New Covenant
This point direcctly addresses the issue of Mary's immaculate conception, but I will address that topic (and the objections to it) more fully later on as well.

The Ark of the Old Covenant was the holding place for the Ten Commandments, which was the word of God. In the Bible, St. John calls Jesus the word of God as well, and Mary, by carrying Him in her womb, became the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant is a holy and pure thing.  If Mary had original sin, she would not have been pure, and therefore could not have been the Ark of the New Covenant. This idea is presented in the Bible when we compare the Old Testament to the New Testament. Notice these similarities:

Old Covenant: This is when the ark of the covenant was brought before King David.
    "David feared the LORD that day and said, 'How can the ark of the LORD come to me?'." 2 Samuel 6:9
New Covenant: This is when Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth, who was pregnant with John the Baptist.
    "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord  should come to me?" Luke 1:43

Old Covenant: This is when the prophet David danced for joy because he was in the presence of the ark, which held the word of God.
    "Saul's daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD." 2 Samuel 6:16
New Covenant: This is when the prophet John the Baptist leaped for joy while in his mother Elizabeth's womb. He did this when he heard the voice of Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus, who is also called the Word of God.
    "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit." Luke 1:41

Old Covenant: The Israelites were filled with great joy because they were so close to the ark that held the word of God.
    "As he and all the Israelites were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouts of joy and to the sound of the horn." 2 Samuel 6:15
New Covenant: This shows how filled with joy Elizabeth and John the Baptist were to be in the presence of Mary, who held the Word of God.
    "Elizabeth cried out in a loud voice and said, 'Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!'." Luke 1:42
    "For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy." Luke 1:44

If this is true, that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, then she must have been pure, and could not have any sin on her soul.  The fact that Mary was born without original sin has been a clear teaching of not only the Catholic Church, but of the founders of Protestantism as well.  Only recently have some Protestant denominations gone away from this traditional Christian teaching.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin." [Martin Luther; "Sermon On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God", 1527]

There is one other "type" which I would like to discuss before moving on to Mary in the NT, and that is the type of Mary as the "gate".  The best explanation I have seen of this was posted on a mailing list, but I don't remember which one, and I don't remember the author.  I am going to paste it below, with only minor editing on my part, and I apologize for not giving credit to the author:

When Jesus made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, He rode on a donkey [colt] which had not been ridden by anyone else (Mark 11:2-10).  He was also buried in a grave which no one else had used (John 19:41.)  These things were not necessary, but it was only fitting that the donkey and the grave used by Christ were used by no one else, as it indicated how special Jesus was.

In the Old Testament there are types that prefigure people, or events, in the New Testament.  The NT person or event which is being prefigured is called the archetype.  The archetype in the New Testament is always greater.  Adam for example is a type of Christ.  Cf Rom 5:14.

In Ezekiel there is a reference to a gate which is a type of Mary.

Ezekiel 44:1-3 1 "Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed.
2 He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.
3 Only the prince may sit down in it to eat his meal in the presence of the LORD. He must enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and leave by the same way."  NAB


Ezekiel 46:8-12 "The prince shall always enter and depart by the vestibule of the gate....
12 When the prince ..., the eastern gate shall be opened for him, ... then he shall leave, and the gate shall be closed after his departure."  NAB

The prince is a type of Christ.  And the gate prefigures Mary, since it was through her womb that Jesus came into the world.  It was fitting that the gate be reserved for prince, and therefore it is only proper that Mary's womb be reserved for only Jesus.  As in the case of the colt, and the new tomb [above], it was only proper and appropriate that God's grace moved Mary to accept a life of consecrated virginity, as her Perpetual Virginity is sign pointing to the specialness of Jesus Christ.  [/quote]

[url="http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/mary.htm#ark"]http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/mary.htm#ark[/url]

[goldenchild17]

Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate ya'll putting this stuff together. Would either of you mind of I used your stuff for my response? I could put in in my own words if you rather, but I think ya'll just put it so well. And St. Colette, he didn't say that the Commandments weren't put in the Ark. He said that the WORD OF GOD was not in the Ark. This was in response to my saying something to the effect of the Word of God is in the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant and the Living Word of God(Jesus) is in the living New Testament Ark of the NEW Covenant. So this is my next question, were the 10 Commandments considered the Word of God? Or was there more there at this time?

[StColette]

I asked Bro Adam about this in the Paltalk room in regard to the 10 Commandments being considered the Word of God. He said that they are technically the Word of God, but not the way that Fundies think.

[goldenchild17]

Okay, one more question for now. How do we know that gold is a symbol for purity? Is there something in Scripture that says this, or something like it? I believe it is, but I was wondering if there was Scripture for it. Thanks.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 17 2004, 07:03 PM'] I asked Bro Adam about this in the Paltalk room in regard to the 10 Commandments being considered the Word of God. He said that they are technically the Word of God, but not the way that Fundies think. [/quote]
Hmm, Okay that's what I thought. But how can one convince them that it is the Word of God? I think it's important to make this point, but how can it be put?

[phatcatholic]

the Ten Commandments are indeed the word of God!

[b]Exodus 20:1-26[/b]
[b]1 And God spoke all these words, saying,[/b]
[b]2 [/b]"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[b]3 [/b]"You shall have no other gods before me.
[b]4 [/b]"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[b]5 [/b]you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
[b]6 [/b]but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
[b]7 [/b]"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
[b]8 [/b]"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[b]9 [/b]Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[b]10 [/b]but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[b]11 [/b]for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

[b]12 [/b]"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
[b]13 [/b]"You shall not kill.
[b]14 [/b]"You shall not commit adultery.
[b]15 [/b]"You shall not steal.
[b]16 [/b]"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
[b]17 [/b]"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."

[b]18 [/b]Now when all the people perceived the thunderings and the lightnings and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled; and they stood afar off,
[b]19 [/b]and said to Moses, "You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die."
[b]20 [/b]And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to prove you, and that the fear of him may be before your eyes, that you may not sin."
[b]21 [/b]And the people stood afar off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.

[b]22 [/b]And the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: '[b]You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven[/b].
[b]23 [/b]You shall not make gods of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold.
[b]24 [/b]An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you.
[b]25 [/b]And if you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones; for if you wield your tool upon it you profane it.
[b]26 [/b]And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness be not exposed on it.'

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Aug 17 2004, 07:10 PM'] Okay, one more question for now. How do we know that gold is a symbol for purity? Is there something in Scripture that says this, or something like it? I believe it is, but I was wondering if there was Scripture for it. Thanks. [/quote]
i'm sure there are many examples, but the first one that comes to mind is this from 2 Timothy:

[b]2 Tim 2:19-22[/b]
[b]19 [/b]But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."
[b]20 [/b]In a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for noble use, some for ignoble.
[b]21 [/b]If any one purifies himself from what is ignoble, then he will be a vessel for noble use, consecrated and useful to the master of the house, ready for any good work.
[b]22 [/b]So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart.

notice that gold is used to represent those who make themselves "vessels for noble use." these people are "consecrated" and of a "pure heart." thus we have here an example of gold being used to represent that which is pure.

i will try to find some more examples.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

[b]Rev 3:18 [/b]Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see.


first of all, note that gold, when tested by fire, becomes more pure, whereas something like wood or hay burns away. it is for this reason that gold is used here and elsewhere in the bible to connote that which is pure. also, gold appears here in the same sentence with "white garments" and "salve" which are also symbols of purity