Help...debating Immaculate Conception

[P3chrmd]

Ok debating Mary's immaculate conception and sinlesness...here is the verses they are using


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

HELP!

feel free to jump in...

[url="http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82052"]http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82052[/url]

[daugher-of-Mary]

Ok, here's the deal...

1. The angels greeting to Mary: a lot of Protestant translations of the Good Book will have "highly favored daughter" instead of "full of grace." That's a bad translation. "Full of grace" is the translation of the Greek word [i]kecharitomene[/i], which is used in the perfect passive indicating perfection of grace not only at any given point, but through the whole of her life.

2. As for the verse from Romans...leave Mary out of the picture and see if you can still take it literally? What about unborn children or infants? Have they done anything wrong? Take a look at Romans 9:11 where Paul says that Jacob and Esau "had done neither good nor bad."

So basically, there are two possible interpretations...
-He is referring to the mass of humanity with some exceptions
-everyone is subject to original sin, including Mary, who although due to be subject to it was preserved by God "her saviour"

[daugher-of-Mary]

Never mind...I read your posts and you're doing great.

[P3chrmd]

thanks for the help...i already talked about the Full of Grace thing and the original greek...but he seemd to not mention that..lol...to me that is the strongest argument but i can use all the help i can get!

anyone else care to add...specifically about the verses he quotes in Romans?

[StColette]

The Immaculate Conception
( 8 December, 1854, Pius IX )

" And I will put enimity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
This passage clearly shows that The Woman is the Virgin Mary and her offspring is Christ.

Since Mary was to bear the one who would be the enemy of Satan would that not also make her the enemy of Satan. And since She is the enemy of Satan then she is against all that he is which is SIN. She can not be both sinful and an enemy of Satan because Satan is sin and Satan loves sin and loves those who sin, but his enemy is the Blessed Virgin Mary who is the mother of Jesus Christ, the second part of the Trinity.

Also in Genesis 3:16 it is read that God increased the pains of the woman's childbearing. This was done for punishment of the original sin. However there are many accounts on which it says that the Virgin Mary did not give birth to Christ in a painful way.
Example

The Odes of Solomon [A.D. 80]
( Ode of Solomon 19 ) So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not require a midwife, because He caused her to give life. She brought forth like a strong man with desire, and she bore according to the manifestation, and she acquired according to the Great Power. And she loved with redemption, and guarded with kindness, and declared with grandeur.

Is:66:7:
7 Before she was in labour, she brought forth; before her time came to be delivered, she brought forth a man child. (DRV)
Since the Virgin Mary was not born with original sin She did not suffer the pains of child birth, which are a punishment for the original sin.
Luke 1:28
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (DRV)

How can someone be filled with sin but at the same time be filled with Grace ? It would be impossible because if one has sinned then their grace with God has been closed off until we repent and ask forgiveness for those sins. God created Mary and given abundant graces to keep her clean from sin so She can be rightly called " Full of Grace "

Those who have said that God would not make someone sinless because only Him and His Son are sinless and can be sinless is contradicting the fact that everything is possible with God. For one must remember that God created Adam and Eve without sin in the beginning. It is possible and true that God created Mary sinless from the beginning of her life in her mother's womb.

Luke 1:30

30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. (DRV)

Can one that has sinned and has sin on their soul find grace in the Lord ? The answer is No, the Lord does not find grace in a soul that is stained with sin.

The argument before has been brought up that Mary was just one of a number of Virgins God could have chose from. This is false. God makes each of us completely special with a purpose in life, though some chose to ignore it. God chose Mary at the very minute of her creation, to be the mother of His son, Jesus Christ.

But please remember that none of these things could have been possible without God. Every grace that Mary received is a gift from God, and these gifts can come from no one but God.

Early Church Fathers " The Immaculate Conception"
( gathered from [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a115.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a115.htm[/url] & [url="http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/immac.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/immac.htm[/url] )

"In such allusions the Fathers taught that the exalted dignity of the Mother of God, her spotless innocence, and her sanctity unstained by any fault, had been prophesied in a wonderful manner...they celebrated the august Virgin as the spotless dove, as the holy Jerusalem, as the exalted throne of God, as the ark and house of holiness which Eternal Wisdom built, and as that Queen who, abounding in delights and leaning on her Beloved, came forth from the mouth of the Most High, entirely perfect, beautiful, most dear to God and never stained with the least blemish." ( Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus )

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."
Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary."
Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,XIII:254

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother."
"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin."
Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
Augustine,Nature and Grace,42[36](A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135

"As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
Theodot us of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made."
Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary."
Jacob of Sa rug(ante A.D. 521),in CE

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay" Theotoknos of Livias,Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6(ante A.D. 650),in TH EO,180

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation"
Andrew of Crete,Sermon I,On the Birth of Mary(A.D. 733),in THEO,180

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all,not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as ecelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever."
Germanus of Constantinople,Marracci in S. Germani Mariali(ante A.D. 733),in ULL,98

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew."
John of Damascus,Homily I in Nativ.(ante A.D. 749),in THEO,200

· End of the use of the source :

( [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a115.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a115.htm[/url] & [url="http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/immac.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/immac.htm[/url] )

[StColette]

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")
Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

brought to you by [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IX"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_v...html#the_bvm-IX[/url]

[P3chrmd]

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


NOW he uses the above verse...what do I do! because it says all that believe...and he is saying that Mary was a believeer so it must include her URGH! lol

[StColette]

P3 did you read my post about Romans ?

[StColette]

This site may help as well rebuking Romans argument [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ135.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ135.HTM[/url]

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]2853 Victory over the "prince of this world" 169 was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is "cast out." 170 "He pursued the woman" 171 but had no hold on her: the new Eve, "full of grace" of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring." 172 Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: "Come, Lord Jesus," 173 since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One. [/quote]

[quote]491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, 134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:


The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. 135[/quote]

[quote]NOW he uses the above verse...what do I do! because it says all that believe...and he is saying that Mary was a believeer so it must include her URGH! lol [/quote]

I just read his profile, and it says that he was "saved" and presumably became a believer at quite a young age...before the age of reason, before he could have deliberately chosen to sin.

[P3chrmd]

[url="http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1478017&posted=1#post1478017"]http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/show...d=1#post1478017[/url]

i would love you guys to post too...Im the only catholic...here...im outnumberd and such an amateur!!

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='P3chrmd' date='Aug 13 2004, 11:44 PM'] Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


NOW he uses the above verse...what do I do! because it says all that believe...and he is saying that Mary was a believeer so it must include her URGH! lol [/quote]
Again, all I see Paul doing is talking about the difference between believers and non-believers, Jews and Greeks. This would take care of ALL people, wouldn't it? Either one is a believer or a non-believer, right? And Paul says that both Jews and Greeks are exactly the like, they are no different, in that ALL(believers and non-believers) have sinned. Not referencing individual people, but the groups as a whole. That's my take on it, after studying Paul's works.

[daugher-of-Mary]

I joined with the username [i]fiat[/i].

[P3chrmd]

Thanks all of you guys!

[StColette]

Morph just did a rockin thread about Romans 3:23 " All have Sinned "

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=17901&st=0#entry312447"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=S...t=0#entry312447[/url]

it may help !!