Monty Python, Peter, And Mary

[Aloysius]

no problem.

i understand there is a danger that you might over-intellectualize your faith. but that does not make intellectualization iteself something to be avoided, for God gave us reason and intellect for a purpose. when someone is sittin there at mass listening to the readings hoping to hear something that they can use against their opponent in an argument, they have gone too far. when someone honestly seeks to have dialogue with those who disagree with them in the hopes that they can come to the fullness of truth found in the Catholic Church but keeps their spiritual journey first, that is perfectly fine and in fact something very GOOD.

[Seatbelt Blue]

I still must advise against these crusades. Ive participated in similar events elsewhere, and the inevitably degenerate into fistfighting.

[Aloysius]

be wise a serpent, simple as a dove

kinda like float like a butterfly sting like a bee, only Biblical... hehe

[HS_Dad]

For disclosure purposes, I converted this Easter.

This is probably a way too mystical way of thinking for many
on Phatmass, but I try to approach things from different angles.

A large part of the thinking and praying I did was related to
the historical record of various "state" churches, Lutheran,
Orthodox, Catholic, etc and persecution of religious minorities.

Through studying the documents of Vatican II and reading thoroughly
many encyclicals by John Paul II and beginning to understand his thought
better, I came to the conclusion that Catholicism had come to a real
understanding of the importance of religious freedom without denying
the value of truth and the normative need to fulfill Jesus' prayer that
"all may be one".

Thinking through history, all too often "Peter hasn't put away his sword".

Rich Mullins 1989, "You know Peter put away his sword
I can see Peter he's putting away his sword
I can see Peter he put away his sword
He won't fight no more

Love has come, love has come, love has come
And it's given me hope to carry on."

He was taken home in 1997.

Christ's love through Christ's life and as demonstrated by John Paul II has given
me hope to carry on as a Catholic.... But, I find the desire to wield Peter's
sword by laymen quite disconcerting and makes me wonder if some Catholics are as converted as they could be.....

John Paul II's encyclicals are quite rich... I hope people will read them, pray and reflect on them more.

Emphasizing the Petrine dimension of Catholicism will be larger ineffective in ecumenism. But, I can attest Evangelicals are impressed by real servant-like faith.

[stagefairy]

People only hear what they want to hear. Debates our only useful to a certain extent. Words don't change hearts. The Holy Spirit does.
I thought the comparison of Faith and Works was useful. The works must flow from the faith. The exterior must flow from the interior. Truth must flow from love.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Seatbelt Blue' date='Aug 13 2004, 09:25 AM'] Agreed, and I see it here all too frequently. Everyone talks about "going on crusade," which generally means "invade a protestant board, stir up trouble, and act all righteous." [/quote]
Actually the word "crusade" simply means to "mark with the sign of the cross," and it only gained its figurative meaning of "a campaign against public evil" in the late 1700s.

That being said, ecumenism must always be about speaking and teaching the truth in love, and so it is not about compromise; instead, it is about bring the fullness of truth to the other person in a dialogue of divine love. True ecumenism will help those separated from the Church, to return to the fullness of faith found only in the one Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church governed by the successor of St. Peter. Moreover, Catholics need to remember that the unity of the Church, because it is founded upon Christ Himself, who cannot be divided, is not a future reality; in other words, the unity of the Church exists already in the Catholic Church alone, to which all men are called.

God bless,
Todd

[amarkich]

The "New Ecumenism" generally tends toward Modernism as far as converting others. The deacon at my church (a holy man) explained these two roads of conversion as Saint Monica and Saint Francis Xavier. Saint Monica told Saint Augustine (before his conversion): "Be Catholic or you cannot live under my roof" (this is correct and is the necessary step in order to not be indifferent to error). Saint Francis Xavier believed this as well, of course, but when he converted the pagans on his missions, he incorporated himself into the culture of the people (at least to some degree; certainly not in Mass or in beliefs or in clothing), but he acted in some ways, as part of the community. These are the two ways of conversion. Ignoring our vocation to convert all to the True Church, e.g., discouraging the Phatmass Cruasade, is indifference.

HS_Dad, Vatican II and the Post-Conciliar Documents must be read in the light of Tradition and other teachings (not the other way around). In order to properly understand Vatican II, one must understand what came before it. Vatican II and the Post-Conciliar Documents are not the place to begin. One should begin with the Church Fathers and move forward from there (it is always important to keep constant reading of Saint Thomas Aquinas as an important theological and philosophical basis). In any event, the Councils before Vatican II must be read and understood before someone worries about what Vatican II (a non-dogmatic, pastoral Council) said. Not everyone is a theologian, but if you are interested in this, you should start from the beginning. God bless.

[phatcatholic]

seatbelt blue,

this endeavor (now formally called the "Fuzzy Bunny Crusade") is very important to me. i have worked very hard to put this together and ensure that it is a success. likewise, i object to your presumptions about it. the point of this crusade is not to invade protestant boards and shove our Truth down their throats. this is first and foremost a learning experience. the purpose of this endeavor is to help people grow more accustomed to defending their faith. it is critical that we know how to explain and defend the truths that we have received from Jesus Christ. how will we appear to the inquiring mind if our response is silence or gross misinformation when they ask us to explain why we believe what we do about Jesus Christ and His Church!?!?

you think nothing good can come from this endeavor? i beg to differ. if we "share the truth with love" then good will always come out of it, rather we convince anyone of anything or not. you want proof? ask St Colette, bushido_boy, and everyone else who was in the recent Paltalk room when we explained and defended Catholic teaching for three hours w/ the same person. although by the end he disagreed w/ us still, he thanked us for the graciousness and patience we showed him. he said that when he goes into protestant rooms where people agree w/ him he hardly sees such charity. b/c we were able to communicate "truth with love" to him, our work was a success. with charity as our foundation, it always will be. now, i'm no master apologist. quite frankly, i think i smell of elderberries at it. but, as long as i approach it the right way, it will be beneficial to all.

secondly, what's wrong w/ examining the scripture and taking an intellectual approach to it? of course, by itself it is lacking for it would be devoid of the passion of the heart and the faith that beleives w/o seeing. but, what if intellectual pursuits are fueled by our faith and our passion for the Lord? i say only good can come from this. our intellectual endeavor is fueled by such things. and as such, every examination of scripture will only give further testament to the glory of the Church and the truths found w/in her. the Catholic should never fear to study the Bible, to uncover the Greek and Hebrew meanings, to analyze the context and to consult the ECF's. how else are we to inform our faith? we can't defend it or explain it if we dont' know anything about it.

what you need to know is that charity is at the root of this entire thing, both our initial intellectual pursuits as well as how we communicate the truths we uncover with others. yea, "crusade" has a negative connotation. that's why i asked dUSt to change the name to something less intimidating. i think he has accomodated my request. more importantly, i think that as long as my fellow crusaders and i remain focused on the purpose and foundation of this crusade, there's nothing disparaging that anyone can say about it.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 15 2004, 12:27 AM'] you think nothing good can come from this endeavor? i beg to differ. if we "share the truth with love" then good will always come out of it, rather we convince anyone of anything or not. you want proof? ask St Colette, bushido_boy, and everyone else who was in the recent Paltalk room when we explained and defended Catholic teaching for three hours w/ the same person. although by the end he disagreed w/ us still, he thanked us for the graciousness and patience we showed him. he said that when he goes into protestant rooms where people agree w/ him he hardly sees such charity. b/c we were able to communicate "truth with love" to him, our work was a success. with charity as our foundation, it always will be. now, i'm no master apologist. quite frankly, i think i smell of elderberries at it. but, as long as i approach it the right way, it will be beneficial to all.
[/quote]
I'll vouch completely for this, I was of course in the Paltalk room when the person thanked us for being kind to him and for graciously answering his questions. He began to elaborate saying quote parts of the Bible that mention you will know the true followers by their fruits and he said that compared the rooms he had been in ours was the most gracious, for others he said tend to be snide when people outside that particular faith would ask questions. I see the Fuzzy Bunny Crusade as having the same attitude as we have in the Paltalk room and that is to always be charitable. And like Phatcatholic said, the crusade is going to be a great way of teaching Catholics how to defend their faith if they need to and to learn things about their faith that they didn't have extreme knowledge of.


God Bless,
Jennie


P.S. Phatcatholic you don't smell of elderberries at Apologetics

[Apotheoun]

Phatcatholic is doing a fine job as the moderator of the apologetics board, and I believe the crusade is important. In fact, I see it as an attempt to bring the new evangelization spoken of by the Holy Father to the internet, which is certainly commendable. Catholics must share the good news of Christ with others, and must do so in truth and love.

God bless,
Todd

[PedroX]

I think both approaches are neccessary, and I think that it is a bit of a false dichotomy. The arguement/apologetics approach is vital. For, if we never speak the truth, how will they hear? and the lifestyle/ example approach is vital. For, if our actions are not rooted in love and holiness, we betray ourselves as hypocrites. We can not simply do one, but must do both.

For example, for 8 years I was a professional social worker. I worked hard to build a reputation as one who worked hard, followed standards and cared for his clients. This to me was how a "Christian" so be. So, when the topic of abortion came up and I would state that I was pro-life, I was allowed a hearing.

peace...