Bible/math Lesson

[cmotherofpirl]

that's why my church is different to yours...

we take the bible literaly. We don't search out hidden meanings or symbolism. If you look at Jesus' teachings, you'll see that he always explained anything that had a metaphorical meaning after he said it.. same God that wrote the rest of the bible...

and i know that some things aren't specifically dealt with in the bible... eg: contraception, masturbation, bank robberies... but it all comes down to this:

Love God.

Love Others.

You can find the answer to anything in those two commandments.

It's so easy. So even stupid ppl like me can understand and be loved by God

You only take the parts of the Bible you like literally.

If you really did you would take the Gospel of John literally which, of course, you do not.

You pick out the parts that agree with your preconcieved notions.

[ICTHUS]

that's why my church is different to yours...

we take the bible literaly.

Heh heh heh...

Does anyone else see the irony in Steves statement?

"I go to a protestant church where they take the Bible literally"

LOL

Read John 6:48-68

[skuba steve]

go ahead... laugh at me...

like little children...

for you must become like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven...

or maybe you could find a deeper meaning to that for me in you're historical documents...

Maybe it means we have to eat boogers to get into heaven???

i dunno... i'm sure Jesus didn't mean it literally... why would anything be so easy to understand????

[cmotherofpirl]

Steve we are to become little children , in being tractable and obedient.

However we are also to be as wise as serpents, so we use our brains as well as our heart.

Of course Jesus meant it literally. Why do you think all those people walked away?

Because it was a symbol?

Do you think those christian martyrs died for a symbol, for a piece of bread?

would you die for a piece of bread?

If you are gonna take the Bible literally, and Catholic DO, you take it all literally, unless it says otherwise.

Jesus said Take and EAT. "This is my body" , "THis is my blood"

Do THIS in remembrance (anamasis) of me.

THe Church and all christians have taken this literally for 2000 years.

[skuba steve]

Of course Jesus meant it literally. Why do you think all those people walked away?

Because they were unable to accept what Jesus said in faith. They wanted to see tangible proof and as far as they knew, the scriptures to that day provided them with it.

Do you think those christian martyrs died for a symbol, for a piece of bread?

More people are being martyred for Christ at present than ever before. They die because of their incredible love for God.

would you die for a piece of bread?

Nup...

but many poor people in England who stole bread to feed their hunger were sent to Australia to be punished... and that's why people live here now, so i think that there is a place for penalties due to pieces of bread in theis world.

[cmotherofpirl]

THey could have walked away at any other time. THey had already seen plenty of miracles by then.

They walked away because they knew Christ was literal, and they couldn't handle it.

54

Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"

And what happens next. And notice Simon Peter does the answering.

68

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

69

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

[skuba steve]

if i eat an apple, thinking that it's an oreo, is it an apple or an oreo?

I doubt that whether you believe that you are eating Christ's actual flesh really matters, what matters is that you do it in remembrance of him.

I love communion. God is always there.

[cmotherofpirl]

if i eat an apple, thinking that it's an oreo, is it an apple or an oreo?

I doubt that whether you believe that you are eating Christ's actual flesh really matters, what matters is that you do it in remembrance of him.

I love communion. God is always there.

So you don't think it matters whether I believe the words of Jesus or not?

[JP2Iloveyou]

if i eat an apple, thinking that it's an oreo, is it an apple or an oreo?

I doubt that whether you believe that you are eating Christ's actual flesh really matters, what matters is that you do it in remembrance of him.

I love communion. God is always there.

I could not disagree with you more on that statement. Now, we know that Catholics claim that a man with valid orders who uses valid bread and wine, intends to do what the Church does, and uses the proper prayer, LITERALLY CHANGES BREAD AND WINE INTO THE BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, AND DIVINITY OF CHRIST. In other words, we know that Catholics believe that Christ, God, is really and truly present in the consecrated host. We know that Protestants do not believe this, either in their own churches, or in the Catholic Church. Catholics agree with them that they do not have Christ really and truly present at their Communion services because at least one, many times more than one, of the necessary things for the consecration to take place is lacking, valid orders. So, the debate is, "Do Catholics really eat the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ when they go to Communion?"

Now, you say it doesn't matter. I think it matters a great deal. Surely, you would agree with me that God could transform a piece of bread into his Body and Blood if he wanted to. He's God, and God can do anything. Now, remember, John 6. I'm not going to type it all out for you because you have probably read it many times and if you haven't, you have a Bible and can read it for yourself. But, Christ says, "Whoever eats this bread will live forever, and the bread that I will give is MY FLESH for the life of the world." St. Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians 23-34 as well. So, one of us is wrong. Either I'm wrong and I'm just eating a piece of bread, or you're wrong and I am eating the flesh and blood of God. Now, I'm you're wrong, and you really can physically consume the flesh of Christ, wouldn't you want to investigate that further. Possibly check out what the early Christians had to say about the matter?

Furthermore, you might want to check out "Eucharistic Miracles." There have been thousands of these throughout the centuries. I would recommend Lancianno, Italy as a starting point. Other less publicized ones include hosts that have been consecrated in the middle of the ocean aboard navy ships have not corrupted for the duration of the trip, possibly for as long as a year in many cases. I mean, what have you got to lose? If you check it out and confirm your own beliefs, then you haven't lost anything. If anything, you've gained knowledge of your faith. If you check it out and you find that you are wrong, you have EVERYTHING to gain because you could literally and physically consume the very body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.

God Bless

JP2

Also, Ironmonk, I don't know the exact homily that Augustine gave on the 153 fish. A priest who I have the highest amount of respect gave a homily on it and gave credit to Augustine for coming up with the idea first. I will try to find out for you though.

[skuba steve]

but whether we believe it is actual flesh or not, aren't will still eating the same thing???

That's what I meant with the oreo thing. Jesus just said to eat and drink in remembrance of him. WHatever you believe you are eating, we are still eating the same thing give or take a little salt and preservatives... :S

God is present when we take the bread and the wine, you can feel him, he speaks to you and he reminds you that we are no longer condemned to a lost eternity because he died for us on the cross.

haha... you'll faint at this but once at a youth camp, we had nothing except for coke and pizza flavoured biscuit things and we ate those in remembrance of what Jesus did for us.

If he changes the bread into flesh than Im eating flesh... if not, im eating unlevened bread...either way... i don't see how it matters.

[Aloysius]

it matters cause Jesus said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you.

THAT is why it matters.

did i just say you don't have life within you? ehhh not exactly. Read my post here so you don't think i think prots are excluded from heaven. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?a...indpost&p=29191

anyway. Yeah. resistance is futile. it's just a matter of time.

[cmotherofpirl]

but whether we believe it is actual flesh or not, aren't will still eating the same thing???

That's what I meant with the oreo thing. Jesus just said to eat and drink in remembrance of him. WHatever you believe you are eating, we are still eating the same thing give or take a little salt and preservatives... :S

God is present when we take the bread and the wine, you can feel him, he speaks to you and he reminds you that we are no longer condemned to a lost eternity because he died for us on the cross.

haha... you'll faint at this but once at a youth camp, we had nothing except for coke and pizza flavoured biscuit things and we ate those in remembrance of what Jesus did for us.

If he changes the bread into flesh than Im eating flesh... if not, im eating unlevened bread...either way... i don't see how it matters.

So you don't see the difference between pizza and the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ?

One is bread and one is GOD!

[skuba steve]

and...?

you keep skipping my point... if i eat lamb thinking that it is tofu, is it not still lamb?

[JP2Iloveyou]

and...?

you keep skipping my point... if i eat lamb thinking that it is tofu, is it not still lamb?

yes, it is still lamb. You are absolutely correct. The point is though, that we Catholics claim we are eating the Flesh and Blood of Christ and we really are eating the Flesh and Blood of Christ. I have never once gone to Mass and eaten bread and drank wine. Sure, they LOOK like bread and wine, but through the transubstantiation (trans meaning to change, substance meaning matter) the matter (bread and wine) changes to become the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ. Now, I can understand how you would not believe this. Answer me this though, could God do such a miracle if he wanted to? I'm not asking if he DOES do it in your opinion. I just want to know if you agree that God COULD do it if he wanted to.

[ironmonk]

Steve,

It is the Spirit that gives life... not the flesh.

It is the Holy Spirit that gives life to the waffer and wine at a Mass, when the Holy Spirit gives it life, it is no longer Bread and Wine.. but it IS the Flesh and Blood of Christ...

Just as Jesus said in John 6. Note how people walked away because they could not accept that the Bread and Wine were actually Christ.... likewise, all who say that it is just bread and wine are counted with those in John 6:66... could that be the sign??? That people do not believe in what Christ said... Fundemental Christian teaching is the Real Pressence...if you don't have it, you are not a believer like the first Christians.

Unless we eat the Body and Drink the Blood, we will not have life in us.... It is only the Catholic Church that has the Real Pressence.

Every Christian believed in the Real Pressence for well over 1000 years.

God Bless,

ironmonk