Vatican II

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='lynn' date='Aug 14 2004, 01:01 AM'] Dude,

I am also in the diocese of Toledo and I definitely know what you are talking about concerning the abuses. I've seen puppets, songs like Somewhere Over the Rainbow, a Shakespeare/Opera singer priest who uses a spotlight, and a priest who didn't like individual confessions, only general absolution. When our last bishop died, one of the news reporters said that our diocese was one of the most liberal. They actually admitted it! The diocesan paper, on a regular basis, had letters from nuns who were always complaining that they couldn't be priests. I used to live in Toledo, and there is a strong socialist presence and most of these people are very liberal Catholics. (Amchurch)

But, I believe our new bishop is a God send. He has had mass at my parish and his homily was very orthodox. He seems to be a holy and humble shepherd. He sure has had a lot on his plate since he was installed. There are many serious issues that need his attention, and Bishop Blair needs our daily prayers. If you are ever in Toledo, mass at St. Joseph's on Locust St. in downtown Toledo is very reverent, and they have the indult mass two Sundays a month and every Thursday. The other Sundays and weekdays, the New Mass is celebrated very reverently. My family goes to this mass once in awhile; we would like to go every week, but it is over an hour drive for us.

God bless,
lynn [/quote]
We used to have a lot of general absolutions. I am so glad Bishop Blair put an end to those, even if it did stir a lot of people up.
I didn't get the Catholic Chronicle until the last Bishop died, so I didn't see the letters from nuns who wanted to be priests. It's probably for the better that I didn't see them, I would have been steemed.
I live south of Toledo, and there is a strong liberal presence here too, although Wood County on the whole is quite conservative.
I've heard about St. Joseph's, and I'de like to go there sometime (especially for the Ecclesia Dei indult Mass). I have the same problem though, it'd take 45 minutes to get there and I'de need good directions. On top of that my parents would never go anyway.
God Bless Bishop Blair.

[musturde]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 12 2004, 02:36 PM'] Since you all are discussing music... that's one of my issues with Mass.

I just have a problem with using music by people who either a) aren't Catholic, or b) do not represent the faith.

A few of the more popular ones:

Michael Joncas is a priest who in his own liturgies has everyone stand around the altar to concelebrate. He refers to the prayers of the Mass as "table prayers". He's most popular for his "On Eagle's Wings" song.

David Haas: Refers to God as a woman, has a music compilation called "Dear Sister God" and has spoken at workshops on the responsibility to purge exclusive language (such as "his", "him", "he" etc.) He's most popular for his "Blest Are They" song (among others).

Marty Haugen isn't even a Catholic, he's Lutheran. He's the one who wrote probably the most popular Mass setting in the United States called "The Mass of Creation". He also wrote a LOT of songs used by many Catholic parishes in the Mass.


You can also read more:
[url="http://www.adoremus.org/1102MassMusic.html"]http://www.adoremus.org/1102MassMusic.html[/url]
(edited to add another link, I forgot the first time!) [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=21821"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=21821[/url]

And most of this info. (and more) can be found if you do a search on yahoo for any of the well-known musicians.
I'm not a fan of GIA publications. But I'm not sure how one goes about telling a pastor that he should get all new hymnals, etc. and avoid GIA publications like the plague. [/quote]
There are some songs we traditionally use that are made by Luther. I dont really think it matters if it's made by a Catholic or not. Both songs Praise God.

[MC Just]

I believe Vatican II was a good thing. There was nothing wrong with Vatican II. There was and is something wrong with the american way and the Church though. There was an infiltration of the church in america during the 60's...That goes with all the abuses, with the mass and the scandals. There is a certain group of people who have been and are trying change the church into something it's not. (A secular "Tolerant" institution")

Edited August 14, 2004 by MC Just

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I visited my brother's Church today in Columbus (another university parish that bares the same name as my own, which leads me to ask why dissidents like St. Thomas More [a martyr for the faith]?).
Anyway, they changed the Nicene Creed so that Christ didn't become "man", he became "flesh" (at least they said it, at mine we do not).
The usual changing of "Him" to "God" in all the responses and holding hands during the Lord's Prayer.
They sang the Lord's Prayer (wasn't that addressed in a papal letter?)
And what bugged me the most was ending the Eucharistic Prayer with "Through Christ, with Christ, and in Christ..." as opposed to "Him".

Oddly enough, the priest gave a very cool sermon on Marian theology and her role in the Church and it's history, that was extremely orthodox.

Does changing the ending of the Eucharistic prayer invalidate the Mass? Or is it only required to say "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood"?

Edited August 15, 2004 by thedude

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 15 2004, 04:14 PM']Anyway, they changed the Nicene Creed so that Christ didn't become "man", he became "flesh" (at least they said it, at mine we do not).
The usual changing of "Him" to "God" in all the responses and holding hands during the Lord's Prayer.
They sang the Lord's Prayer (wasn't that addressed in a papal letter?)
And what bugged me the most was ending the Eucharistic Prayer with "Through Christ, with Christ, and in Christ..."  as opposed to "Him".
[/quote]
The creed and the prayers in the properly approved liturgical books are to be recited as they are printed.

The reason that the creed says ". . . and became man," is in order to exclude the Apollinarian heresy which denied that Christ had assumed a complete human nature, body and soul, and which held instead that the Logos only assumed human flesh, without a rational human soul. So, changing the creed fails to take into account that it has been formulated specifically in order to exclude various heretical notions.

As far as holding hands during the Our Father at Mass is concerned, the Congregation for Divine Worship, in a response to a [i]dubium[/i] sent to it in 1975, stated that holding hands at this point in the liturgy is a spontaneous gesture that is not contained in the rubrics, and thus the practice should be discouraged.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 15 2004, 04:14 PM'] Does changing the ending of the Eucharistic prayer invalidate the Mass?  Or is it only required to say "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood"? [/quote]
No, the change in wording of the concluding doxology of the Eucharistic prayer wouldn't invalidate the Mass, but the change is unauthorized, and so it is illicit.

[Theoketos]

I could have chosen both of the last two options.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 13 2004, 01:39 PM'] Diocese of Toledo in Ohio. The new here Bishop is actually quite excellent. I don't think he's visited my parish yet... [/quote]
Try to get him to visit - incognito if possible. I heard of a story in which Cardinal George when he was bishop out west, after a mass in which there were apparently liturgical abuses, stood up and said from the pulpit that the mass just said was a sham and he sent the priest somewhere to be retrained. (This was something reported on Pro-Life Action League hotline, and I don't know if it is documented somewhere, but even if it turns out to be an urban legend, it could suggest a course of action for your bishop to take).

[Crusader_4]

I am lucky my Parish is rather orthodox and i have never noticed a liturgical abuse.

I want to talk about music at mass now though. I think a strong organ does much more good then a piano or band it shows reverence and by sure beats the heck out of songs like "On Eagles Wings" or "City of God" i sing at the school choir at my school and when we pull out these songs all of the Ukraninan Catholics in the choir say "Oh no not another Roman Catholic Song" ...i am not running down Vatican II or anything since it was important and was a great point in our Church's history. But individuals have taken things and twisted them to fit their own agenda. Also while we are on the topic I respect Dust and the CAtholic vs Catholic deabte but i think its important to that we discuss councils such as VAtican II and VAtican I and Nicea and Epheseus etc. all of the Church councils because they are such an essential part to our faith as Catholics. It also helps us to understand the role of Councils. Also it helps us to point out liturgical abuses we often see. I think no one on this thread has any beef with JP II i know i dont and he has been a Crusader of Orthodoxy and diminished many radical feminist and others dreams of turning Vatican II into something it is not. But we have to be aware as strong Catholics of those who are turning the liturgy into something it is not and are trying to paint councils such as Vatican II or even Trent or even Epheseus for that matter as something they are not.

-William

[Theoketos]

The Peeps on Phatmass are in a large part awesome becuase of Vatican II, so thanks in part to dUSt, I think that there are large pockets where it works.

Phatmass makes hope my dope.

and you can quote me on that.

[Guest JeffCR07]

amen to that Theoketos

[Laudate_Dominum]

amen to that Theoketos

[ardillacid]

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER

[Selah]

I bought daisies